MonSTeR

Yes. With a little work I beleive you could but of course as with any system there's be limitations. IF you had lists of "role-specific pros/cons" and "general pros/cons" it'd be a start. It'd be cheaper to 'buy' perks from either the characters initial "role" or the general list. To buy from outside the list, say a netrunner buying from the fixer list would cost more.

I'd also more than likely "cap" the maximum level for pros from outside the characters "role specific" list. Perhaps (and I'm typing this pretty much on the fly) Role-specific pros could reach level 10, where as General perks, those available to anyone could reach level say 6, and those which were from ANOTHER role's Role specific perks could only reach level 3.

Heck you could even make a perk "change of heart" which for a certain amount of XP allows the character to change his "role" and thus now select from the perks lists at the cost appropriate to his new role.

I think I'd handle it by having "Case" start out as a Netrunner, choosing pros that related to netrunning. somethingalong the lines of "interface" "computer empathy" or the like, these might well be available to all classes but at decreased ability or increased cost.

Then using his XP from his adventures "buy" the pro "ring of contacts" from whichever list that comes under. Whether it'd be a "fixer" perk and thus cost Case more to purchase than it would someone who had bought it as an initial pro or if it was from the "general" list . If he had more XP to spend it could go on something like another level of "ring of contacts" of the more specific "known aquaintance" or something.  

I think I'm getting there in the idea I just need a mechanic for this lot now

I'm beginning to think "role-specific" pros/cons might be **an** answer to this. Almost like generating a 'range' of special abilities suited to the basic character archetypes, rather than having the uniform "this is your role-this is your special ability" but avoiding the free for all that can occur in completely role free systems that results in characters overly tricked out with pros and cons, and perks completely at odds with the rest of the character.

One of the worst things is the net-jockey who hasn't left his terminal for more than 10 minutes in the last 3 years who just happens to have "combat reflexes" at the same (maximum) level as an  elite solo.

I'm not saying a net runner can't be fast, just that it shouldn't perhaps be as easy for him to get that "pro" as it would be for the aforementioned "elite solo" if you see where I'm coming from.

North towards Little Italy and the theoretical safety of Marco's. It's more than likely the time Rat bought won't be as long as anyone would hope, it never is.

Things seemingly just got a lot more complicated and more dangerous, and the team has taken a step closer to the edge.

Plus it can't help with GURPS Cyberpunk and Cyberpunk Adventures being out of print at the moment.

13 - Freeway Fighter!!!

You got a Dodge Interceptor with "Firepower" and "Armour" stats... I have the book right here

OK, after all the banter we've had about how many of us think this is the way forward, does anyone have any good sources for a list of these pros/cons etc or whatever we wish to call them.

Or even better has anyone constructed their own ? (and would be willing to share?

Curses... How could I forget an entire third of the stats all in one go!!!

The first system for CP2020 that had no classes that I ever came across was by a guy called "Gary Astleford" who ran by the name "ocelot"

His system suffered from the flaw that all these systems suffer from. Munchkin Player Vulnerability. It had a great list of "Perks" and "Drawbacks", but the system was such that they could be so badly manipulated so as to take all "character" out of a charater.

All characters could have "combat sense" (or it's equivalent) so I'm sure most did etc. That's not really the system's fault, it's the fault of the munchkin that chooses it for his otherwise "bookish" character. BUT a good commercial system needs to have ways to either constantly remind players to play a role not "the" role or to constrain them form trying to turn their netrunner into Wolverine

Yep they were huge over here. They were the UK's first "coose your own adventure" style solo gamebook. With 2 stats. "Skill" and "Stamina". It's hard to have ANY character class when there are only 2 attributes and no skills

Later on some classes were introduced. In some of the books you played a wizard, in others a superhero etc and these all had thier own tag on rules effectively forcing the reader/player into a role.

It was later expanded into a multiplayer game like an even more basic D&D.

Everyone I knew had done at least one of the solo gamebooks. Boys and girls alike could get into these things and yes it lead to the creation of "Games Workshop".

JEeeeeeez - I found my first Gurps Autoduel stuff.. 1987!!!

Beleive it or not I ran a stock gurps autoduel adventure with CP2020 in about 92/93 I changed so very little. The character conversion seemed pretty simple, and the car combat was toned down a little. I simply removed the "vehicle mounted" weaponry and had folks lean out through the windows and use thier HK MP2020s Worked an absolute charm.

That's the exact thing that I believe make "Predator 2" a cyberpunk movie. It's not the government agents prowling around in the background, or the drug war scene at the beginning. It's the heat. All the time.

Good call darkmonki

Gurps is still a good open system, I played years ago when "Gurps AutoDuel" was a new idea !!! and like DragoonCav says it lets you play pretty much exactly the character you want to play (as long as it all balances).

I think one thing to remember is that when the first edition of Cyberpunk 2013 came out, it was a pioneering game that set the social climate unlike any other game before it (at least any other game that sold). I think a lot of folks didn't know what to make of it then, and thus they required a little shoehorning into thier roles. Unfortunately I think the shoehorn may have shoved some folk straight into the "Dungeons & Drugdealers" game instead of miles away from it

I think the idea of "Archetypes" is far better though, ones where plenty of room is left to customise the character, yet still hold true to the genre's usual "character classes"

And I'll also agree that to an extent "skill packages" can be very restrictive, but they're also a great help to roleplaying for those with a greater sense of imagination, than a sense of realism. Maybe a wider choice of skills within the predetermined roles would have helped loosen the knots in CP2020's character creation process.

Quote (psychophipps @ April 30 2002,21:51)

I'm *SO* sick and f*cking tired of everyone giving the Average Joe/Jane the stats and skills of a person who is mentally retarded and has muscular dystrophy!   AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH!

The only thing I have grief with here that with an "average" body of just 5 points, that character can deadlift 200Kgs/440lbs.

That's what I'd deem a little on the high side for a 30 year old mother of 2 who works in an office building. Or am I severely underestimating the average 9-6 accounts clerk/soccer mom?

Nah... the going out of the plane bit is easy as pie, the trouble is 800 feet below

I think that's an excellent point the individual characters place within the group/team can often be accomodated by the "role" of the character. This can be good as long as the opportunity for all characters specialities tocome into play arises

In the MonSTeRPunK game, so far there's been no combat. (Which is good because combat tends to hurt... a lot) But it's left the Solos of the group a little like fish out of water which is again not good

I'm very much in two minds about this and like everyone else I think there are degrees of where good becomes bad.

I think that "roles" are a good thing, but that being very strict with them is not.

I'm currently faffing around with the idea of "perks" if you will as opposed to "special ability" but also considering it as a supplement to things like "combat sense"

There's also the line that I tread carefully over regarding Skill vs. Special Ability.

Like Bookwyrm said

"Med tech" isn't a special skill, but how do you account for those characters that are the Dougie Howsers of 2020?

I think certain "perks" should be available to all, but certain "perks" should be restricted to those in certain roles.

It's all interleaved ever decreasing circles!!!!

One of the things I like about BESM and it's CyberPunk-esque supplement  "Hot Rods and Gunbunnies" is the ability to trade skills for perks and perks for skills and still end up with a fairly balanced character at the end.

When I get the BESM and CP2020 systems successfully hybridised and I splice in some Phippsian damage system and a Star Wars-esque Mechanical/Vehicle stat, I'm onto a winner for sure. Either that or a copyright nightmare

Rat sits in the van his soul in cyberspace. Shrapwatches as they move on past the previous lead SUV leaving them both behind and seemingly out of visual contact with the Krantz Technology Ops Teams.

Thumper seems as tense as ever, having been damn sure that this would end in a firefight, which it somehow, mysteriously, didn't.

Neko and Bloodbath exchange worried glances in the front.

That was too easy, or it's nohere near over yet.

The van glides on through the morning traffic as the autumn sunshine glares through the cityscape.

As Juliet sits timidly her breathing somewhat shallow, Bloodbath throws a look over his shoulder,

"Where to now?"

Rat 's phone goes and his side of a brief exhange can be heard by those in the van.

"I'm telling you, call the dogs off, you don't want want to know what I'll do to them if you don't!"

In light of Rat's phone call a few moments the SUV behind drops back indicating and coming to a stop against the sidewalk. The one up ahead moves off into the traffic presumably to turn off down a sidestreet.

The Black SUV moves up in a rash manouvre to sit directly behind the van.

Either Rat's message didn't get the response it was supposed to or these guys are acting on higher orders, or have decided to throw orders to the wind and do a Sinatra (their way).

From a side street up ahead another black SUV truns onto the street you're on. In the traffic it's impossible to get a fix on the licence plate even with teleoptics, but what what odds would you give that trouble didn't just get twice as bad?

The SUV looks to move out again and swerves in again to avoid an oncoming Ford. With the Ford's blaring horn zooming off into the distance the driver of the black SUV puts his foot down and as the big v8 roars over the traffic noise, the SUV moves up another place in the traffic. Only one car, an old olive coloured Chevy from before the merger sits between the team's van and the Krantz Technologies SUV.

Juliet seems to be getting a little worried, and suggests she call her beau.

"If I call David he could perhaps arrange a change of vehicle or something? I know that he can't move directly against my father's security, but maybe there's something he can do?"

Whilst the team try to figure out whether to engage or attempt to disengage from their pursuers, the occupants of the black SUV show another card from their hand and it overtakes another vehicle to sit just two cars behind the team's van in the traffic stream.

It seems they're trying to force a response from you all.

Whether that response is to allow them to dictate the terms or to engage them on yours either as Thumper suggests in the Combat Zone, or to try and lose them entirely in the Mallplex without the hard back up the teams Solos can provide is up to the team. Either way it seems like that choice will need to be made soon.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrgggghhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

As Bloodbathheads to the east of the city, towards the mall complex, one of the closest things Night City has to an arcology, the SUV behind overtakes a car moving closer to the team's van.

Going off topic for a while but...

The "Listen Up" book made me take notice and go "ooooh" a few times as well as "No!!!" a few times as well. It not only gave me the confidence to tell my players where to go, but also the confidence to tell the so called "best refs" in the book where to go as well.

Withthe online game I run here, I was suffering a crisis of confidence until Phipps dropped me a PM. I think sometimes all a Ref needs is a friendly "it's ok" and other times the armoured cyberboot comes in handy