Master_Drow

The thing that I have been wondering is Military in space.

Say we need to invade Mars for some reason (revolutionaries take over a space colony) what branch of the military is involved. The ground troops would probably be Army, but the space ships would be Air Force? Or does the Army get a few transport ships so that it can move it troops to other planets?

What does the Navy do? The only major body of water is the Earth, unless we go to Europa. But since Europa is covered in an ice layer over 50 miles thick that means only submarines would be viable, if they can take the pressure. So does the Navy have no real place when you go to space? Are they forever bound to earth?

 

Should a new force be made to deal with space? Like a new branch of the military to deal with space. Do they have any jurisdiction on Earth? Does this new space army have jurisdiction on Mars? Or do they just have jurisdiction in orbit but not within the atmosphere?

 

 

Or better yet, how does government work in space?

Will governments of Earth claim pieces of Mars and divide it up like we did earth? Or will one country take the whole planet?

What about space stations? Who owns the international space station?

What about private space stations? Do they have to follow the US constitution if they were created by a US based company? If Cuba made a space station would they have to abide by any laws?

 

Space is like the new wild west, space cowboys running around doing whatever. Actually I recommend the TV show Firefly for exactly this reason.

 

Or maybe we will divide space into regions owned by governments. Like maybe Russia owns everything between 320, 21, 10 and 450, 500, 50 (3 Dimensional spacial co-ordinates). What happens when a planet orbits into Russian controlled space?

 

 

 

Actually how do we set up spacial coordinates?

If you want to meet a buddy in space how do you set a meeting place? Like right now I can say I'll meet you 5 miles north east of town and you would know where that is. How do I do that in space? Ill meet you 5000 miles south of the sun? Which side of the sun is north? Which side is up? And since the earth and other planets move you can't even say, "I'll meet you on the Earth side of the sun" because that will change all the time. It would be like saying I'll meet you on the backside of the moon, the moon rotates every 24 hours so that means that you and I may call the "back" two completely different sides.

Maybe we will set up some sort of Spacial Co-ordinate System, and then we can use an on board Spacial Positioning System (SPS) to know where we are. It takes around 30 satellites to get GPS anywhere on the planet, in theory you can set up an SPS with just 4 satellites. By knowing your distance relative to each of these and you have a way to setting up exact locations, but you would need to set these satellites up around the Sun as the earth moves to fast to be a good zero point. And this would still only work if you were navigating within our solar system.

There actually is a book for magic that was created for the Interlock system.

 

Interlock Magic Book

 

Or you could look at how Shadowrun does magic, it would be pretty easy to pull it into either a cyberpunk or D&D system.

 

This thread maybe relevant.

Shadowrun and Cyberpunk Magic

 

 

Also, welcome to the forums. Watch out for the crazy people, the like to reside around these parts, but they are mostly harmless... mostly.

For an easy to make space station might I suggest the old Fuel Pod to Station conversion.

 

Basically with every launch NASA puts that huge fuel pod into space but then they let it fall back to the earth where it burns up in the atmosphere. This pod is huge, "It is 154 feet long and 27.6 feet in diameter and carries more than 535,000 gallons of cryogenic propellants"

 

But what if you kept the fuel pod in space and converted it to be a space station module? That gives you more than 13,000 cubic feet of space to work with. And if you spin it you can easily achieve enough velocity to get artificial gravity.

 

Their have been a bunch of ideas about how to best use this piece but it has never been implemented because NASA does not want to change anything on the pod citing that unknown factors could cause safety issues.

 

Here is a document that talks about it in full detail.

Fuel Pods to Space Stations

Marine is a naval term directly related to the sea. I guess you could call space marines "Orbitals" but that might be too specific. I just don't like the way "Spacer" sounds. What's the space equivalent of the littoral zone? The Exosphere? I quite like "Exos", that has the right ring to it...

Pilot, flyboy, hopper, paratrooper, shock trooper, Duster are a few that pop into mind. I think it is odd that the navy has marines that it can deploy on land, but the Air Force has no infantry as the airborne troopers/paratroopers are part of the general army.

 

 

The best way to solve this is to look at how the name "marine" came about. According to Wikipedia "The word marine is from the English adjective marine, meaning of the sea, via French marin(e), of the sea from Latin marinus ("maritime")."

 

So the latin for Sky/air/heaven comes back with a bunch of words. Caelestis, Caelum, Spatium, Spacium, Spati, Spacii, Caeli.

If we English-ify these we can get Caelum, Column, Spatium, Spatier, Caelium.

 

Or we can use French words. Canard, Brise, Cadre, Astre, Soleil, étoile.

Again if we English-ify we can get Cannary, Drake, Canarder, Breezer, Cadet, Aster, Solar, Blazer.

 

I think their might be a few options here.

So were looking at odds of like 20 to 1 that a well trained human can take a borg. If you bring a melee weapon your odds get a lot better but that is still 10 to 1.

 

Basically, just shoot the Tin Can with at least a 7.62mm and just keep shooting until it stops, or you run out of bullets. Because fists are not a way to success.

Thanks for the welcome. I've been away from Cyberpunk for a while and I'm impressed at how much love it's still getting.

 

One question, though. Are noobs like me restricted from starting new threads? And if that's the case, how big a post count do I need before I can start asking even more questions?

I don't think there is a minimum limit. If there is it is pretty low as I never had a problem.

 

Best way to find out is to try. If you have a problem just let us know.

 

 

And guys, from what I can surmise from your posts this place if full of crazy locals that like to bite people... Way to not scare the new guy.

The first thing that comes to mind is Kung-Fu which focuses in doing light hits very quickly and very precisely. It is basically the same in this situation. You have a fleshy doing minimal damage to a borg but with many precision hits you can wear down the borg.

 

The way you are going to damage limbs is by trying to push them in directions they are not meant to go. Knees don't go backwards, elbows don't go sideways, etc. The basics of locking up joints and then applying pressure are what is going to work here. Arm locks followed by a strike could strain a joint even if it is made of metal. Wrist locks followed by a strike could render the hand entirely useless.

 

This website has some pictures of what I mean. If you take these wrist locks and then apply a strike that wrist is going to take a lot of damage.

 

But if you are just going to try and punch a joint (without locking it) and hope that you can strain it to the breaking point, it would be like trying to punch the hinges off a door, it wont work.

Wow, nobody posted in this thread for a while. Anyway, new member long time lurker and all that good stuff. I just fired up a Cybepunk game powered by Interlock and this seemed like a good place to jump in.

You came to the right place! Feel free to ask any questions you might have. Always good to see a new face.

 

The main thing is that you have 2 major groups in space. Those flying the ships and those boarding them. Like how the Navy has those on the ship (Sailors) and those who do off ship operations (Marines). The air force would have two parts, those who fly the ship and those who board other ships. Basically a Pilot/Astronaut and a Marine division.

 

 

ZERo G Marine = ZERG Marine

 

SPace, AERial Marine = SPAER Marine (probably pronounced Spear Marine)

 

SPAce REsponse Force = SPARE Force (Also works for space recon force)

 

SPace High-altitude Extreme Aerial Response = SPHEAR (sphere?)

 

SPace Extreme Air Response = SPEAR (or SPace Extreme Aerial Response)

 

Or if you can get the letters to work

Specter

 

 

Right now they are just the 1st Space Brigade (with a cool insignia)

The hardest part about running a psychological thriller is not become crazier than the characters.

 

Anyway, this was a very fun game. I liked it a lot. If you ever decide to run something else I would be happy to join.

 

Someday I should get around to animating parts of this game, it would be a fun project.

 

 

Not all who wander are lost.

-J. R. R. Tolkien

 

Holy Roman Empire: Other than being neither Holy or Roman, by its end, it wasn’t even really an empire. The Holy Roman Empire became a loose confederation composed of hundreds of smaller sovereign states, which was finally dissolved in 1806 after being militarily defeated by Napoleon. For his part, Napoleon reconstituted the former HRE as the Confederation of the Rhine, which was later replaced German Confederation following the end of the Napoleonic Wars.

Fun Fact.

The first reich was the Holy Roman Empire, and the second was founded in 1871 by Bismarck, as chancellor, under Kaiser Wilhelm I, King of Prussia and Emperor of Germany. It lasted as a monarchy until 1918. The third reich was Nazi Germany.

 

That area seems to be fond of a Germanic state. And if you look at how the EU is currently you could see a situation where Germany absorbs a smaller country like Greece and absorbs their debt too. This would economically stabilize the region and strengthen the EU as a whole. Probably won't happen any time soon, the whole Hitler thing is still too fresh, but it is a possibility.

Rinse and repeat with several other failing countries and you could see a 4th germanic empire arise.

Oh I should probably add the newest version then

 

There are not many changes, mostly I just properly listed the authors and fixed a few minor things (mostly format).

 

I have yet to include any rules on how to Trace, and the programs list is just ported over from the CP 2020 source book and is in no way official.

 

Run.Net Beta 1.2.1a Rule book

Metric tons

Agreed.

And finally, they failed to mention Martin was attacking him at the time.

Actually no one is sure about that. Some audio experts came out and said that the screams on the police recording were not Zimmerman's. And with the video of Zimmerman entering the police station (see my post above) without blood or bandages it makes it seem as if he was never actually attacked.

 

As I said, no one really know what happened except for the guys who were there. One is dead and the other is the shooter, he is going to say whatever is needed so he can stay out of jail.

 

I'd use SKILL + REF + D10, with the skill varying depending on what you're doing. Eg, Rifle+REF or Martial Arts+REF.

 

That way both skill and natural ability are important, but players can't put all their points into one, single Initiative skill.

This has the problem of trying to figure out what weapon the player wants to use before the round even starts. And what if the player is using a camera? Is it Photo & Film skill?

 

Otherwise I like it.

 

I always wondered what the sp 14 clothes were made of. Alien magic metal might be right.

 

I just added a rule that bullets that don't penetrate soft armor do bludgeoning damage. Benefit of not actually bleeding out, and the reduced damage is nice. Plus bludgeoning heals faster if I remember correctly.

Your safe man. I dont see Zulu attacking the ICU ward of the hospital.

Ok my last post was very long and came out with a sort of dark tone to it. I wanted to make it clear, I like Run.Net it is great.

 

 

In summary.

You have made a great world of Run.Net. You understand how it is supposed to function, and I am sure it works great with every little gear in its place. Please tell us in great detail how the machine works and where all of the gears/rules belong and how they function, because currently we are (or at least I am) a bit confused on what goes where and how it all fits together. Once we understand how the system is supposed to work in its entirety we can change it to how we want. The result of personalized systems will still come about, like you want.

 

So please, tell us how you see it. From there we shall make it into what we desire, but at least then we will fully understand what you are saying.

 

 

Might I suggest a simple definition of terms. There are 100 permutations of the Command/Target system. (There are 10 commands, and for each command there are 10 targets) Most players would not see even half of these combinations. And fewer still would know how to properly use them. So what are the commands and targets and what do they do?

For example, I did not realize that scan:file/database only found the number of files/databases and not specific ones. That query:file/database is used to find specific files/databases and can only be used after you know the file or databases exists (aka after you have scanned)

Edit: Really you can just skip this post and just read the next one. I spend a lot of time on specific points and examples but my underlying point is posted below, and it is the one that matters.

 

Over the course of reading the feedback to Run.Net I have noticed one pattern coming up frequently. People seem to apply a different standard to their concepts of hacking than they do to rules governing other aspects of the game. For instance, combat. There is no pre-set number of steps to get from intention to outcome in combat, and depending on the GM you have, there will be a massive variation in how a combat sequence might feel. Some are gritty and realistic and lethally fast and brutal, others are cinematic and outlandish, and yet others might be in-between. I believe everyone benefits from that flexibility.

I agree. However, I would point one place where Net and Meat space differ. Speed. See in meat space, if you want to do something you do it one action at a time. 'I want to shoot that guy!' roll to hit. Now that guy gets to respond. And everyone gets 1 action before the other side gets to respond. In this way every action is limited. So when you want to rob a bank you do it is very little, baby step sized, increments. Put on ski mask, walk in door, yell 'This is a robbery', shoot the guard, hold up the teller, steal the money, walk out the door, escape in car. For every step of that action everyone else gets to respond.

Now in Net space you have the well established idea that it is faster. So if you can rob a real bank in 10 minutes you have to be able to rob a virtual bank in 1 minute. But that does not mean there are less actions involved. The thing is, when a player wants to rob a real bank he will probably come up with a list or steps similar to mine. But when a player wants to rob a virtual bank most people don't really know where to start. That is why I say we need to better define these actions. So for a virtual bank robbery the rules might give a basic list of actions. Stealth, Infiltrate, Locate data, Download data, Hide your tracks, escape into the net. Now we have defines 6 general steps on how to rob a bank, and as such we know that players are going to have to take at least 6 actions to rob a bank. Some people will expand on a few of these points, like the locate data step might mean finding a hidden file and breaking an encryption. However now we, as the designers, can assume that the average player will take a minimum of 6 actions to rob a bank. And, most importantly we know that the enemy should have a chance to respond to each action before it is too late and you run out the door holding all his money. (which is how the current initiative system can be used)

So now we have to figure out how do we get 6 actions in the 1 minute time frame and allow the opposition an opportunity to respond. The problem we currently have is that we have no idea how many steps a player needs to do an average run. We know that it has to happen faster than real space, and we know that we want both sides a chance to react, but what we don't know is how much time can we expect at a minimum. If you can do three actions and then I do three that works great, as long as you are not already driving down the street holding all of my money before I can ever go. That is why we need to know how many steps it takes to go from Infiltration to escape, and it needs to be fairly consistent from table to table. If a player can get in and get out before the defender can respond then it is very one sided conflict. So, your system works fine if it takes 6 steps, but at another table the same effect can be done in 3 and now it is no longer a fine system.

 

Side rant, sort of:

Honestly, I think the best system would be to have each net round be 1 second (aka 1/3 of a meat round) and then just have the standard back and forth initiative system. But this means that the runner is doing 3 actions while the street samurai is doing 1, and that makes people feel bad (or something). We know that the net is faster, and we try to fix this by allowing players more actions per round. But really why not just use the exact same system as the meat world and just reduce the time of each round. 2 or 3 net rounds per meat round works just fine, and at the net/meat barrier (aka firing a hacked turret at a person in meat space) just takes 3 rounds. The meat space already does this with its rounds and turns (3 rounds per turn) why not just add a new category for the net (3 nets per round) and then call it good.

 

 

Back to topic:

So the major problem we have is people and their knowledge of the world.

Most people can easily visualize how to do something in the real world. Ask any man 'how long would it take a trained professional to reload a gun that uses a mag system?' and he will give you and answer around 3 to 5 seconds. Now ask the same person 'How long would it a trained professional to hack a password?' the answers will vary from 10 seconds to hours/days/weeks*. See the average person has no idea how time functions in the net. And to make matters worse, we are dealing with a fictional net. If Cyberpunk or Run.Net used the real internet then hacking would never be used in combat, it takes days, not seconds. However, in this game players want hacking to take seconds. So now we have not only the problem that no one knows how the net works, we also have to design the rules for a fictional environment, so not even the game designers know how the net would actually work.

There are so many things we take for granted in the Meat space. We know that a pistol won't hurt a tank, or that you first have to put a mag in the gun before you can fire. The thing is people don't know these same basic things on the net. That you need to get past the firewall before you can ask the computer for its location, or that you need to use the locate function to find a database then you must query it to know what files that database holds before you can download them.

In your example you have BoxPhreak scan the computer to find the database, then query the database it to pull up a list of files it has, then use locate where the file might be in the database. In the game I did with Malek we only used Scan to show us where the file was. We did not realize that a query would give us a list of files, or that locate was used for finding files in databases.

 

 

 

*[This is a side note relating to the * above.] The same problem we see in the net we see now with CSI. People have been watching CSI on tv for almost 10 years and now we all think we know how it works. Found DNA? Run it through the sequencer and you will have a result faster than you can get a cup of coffee. In reality it takes 3 to 4 weeks to get a result just because how backed up the crime lab is. But if we were to make a CSI rpg we would design a fictional land where DNA can get processed in hours not weeks, just because that is how players want it. However, any real cop will start call bullshit within 5 minutes of reading the rules. And since we are assuming that the average player has no idea how an actual crime lab works we would have to define just about everything from chain of custody to what skill it takes to titrate for hydrochloric acid. We have the same problem now, how to de make a fictional net that the players want while at the same take staying true to how the internet actually functions.

 

 

 

Also, who do you know that is worth their hacking skills who would have to pay for software or access?

This conjures up scenarios of nearly invincible weefle hackers who hide behind a pre-paid get-out-of-combat card.

My first idea was the TOR network which is a real life set of proxies all over the world that are free to access and use. The TOR program automatically sets up any number of proxies for you at the push of a button. Did I mention it is free and it uses Encrypted networks? I added the cost thing to help balance out the game, but in reality proxies are free to access and are simple to use. The problem on the net is that it is easy to go on the offensive and it is very hard to fight back. The only reason more hacking does not happen is because it takes a long time and with enough time you will be caught. But in Cyberpunk hacking is not slow but fast, like super fast. So there is no hope of ever fighting back. So for balance reasons things need to be broken to be fixed. (odd huh?)

 

 

It's important to note that I do not spend much time on this project and therefore a lot of what I say on it is liable to be riddled with contradictions, straw-men, and loopholes. This system is certainly "use at your own risk" and "your mileage may vary". I think it is fun and useful, but I'm sure it has plenty of flaws in it.[/color]

Sadly, for the reasons I describe above, reality and the fictional Net are not friendly. You can fix it now and have a very good system but it degrades over time. I do admire that you are trying to make a system that will last for 50 years with no updates but you have traded in specificity for ambiguity. It would be like saying, 'a car transports people and has 4 wheels'. While it is a true definition it is also impossible to draw a car from that description.

Also is there a simpler way of doing the Reaction Time mechanic?

This is the third time I have seen that question in the past month. In short yes. Most of the time it is accomplished by a house rule, as Wisdom likes the system as it currently is.

 

Look at this thread to see some options. <--- linky

2. Many / most actions that a player will take are not going to directly be combative as they might be in the meat-space part of the game. Run.Net plays much more like submarine warfare than it does a john-woo gunfight. It's all about hide and seek.

From my bit of game play experience this is where the problem is. In your example (the original Run.net thread) BoxPhreak is hacking a database looking for a file. Your example has a 6 step process. Scan, detect, query, locate, query, detect.

When I was playing with Malek this exact same process would have been closer to 3 steps. Scan, Detect, Control. Now it accomplished the same goal of finding the hidden file and downloading it. But the number of steps differ.

 

My point is this. The only problem that I have with the runners get X number of actions per turn is that depending on the GM X number of actions could mean you get a ton done or very little done.

So if I had a runner with 6 actions and you were the GM I could find a hidden file on a system in six turns. If Malek was the GM I could infiltrate the system, find the file, and get out, all before the defensive programs could respond. Same number of actions vastly different outcomes.

 

I know that one goal of Run.Net is to be very free form. But I am of the opinion that the number of actions needed to do something should be better defined, or at least more concrete suggestions should be given. Simply so the game is played more uniformly from table to table. This would make it much easier to design certain parts of Run.Net that depend on such things, instead of the multiple vastly different interpretations that we are getting now.

 

 

 

 

It sounds pretty good to me.

Why thank you. Did you look at my other idea that used a stealth multiplier to determine a target trace number? It is much easier to use, but less Run.Net in style.

 

maybe this is realistic, but it poses operational problems for gaming.

I happen to agree. It feels more realistic, but it comes at the cost of making the game more complicated. And since a player will almost always use some form of proxy it means that it will be a common occurrence in game.

I did think of a few things that can help remove the this complication.

1) First was the proxy web where you could just rent proxies with a single action.

2) Second is a worm/virus that infects computers and make a private proxy web ready for the player. This takes time to initially set up, but it does so automatically, the player can then connect when needed as a single action.

3) Third the player could have a bunch of compromised servers and this allows him to use a single action per server to set up the proxies. People may even sell their back doors into compromised systems so the player won't even have to do the initial hack.

4) Fourth some proxy program that gives a set quality level of proxy within a few rounds. Similar to the worm but much faster, however it generates less servers and/or lower quality servers.

 

All of these would just return 1) the number of proxies the player has and 2) the quality of his connection.

However, some people would want to hand craft their special proxies and could spend hours getting 300 proxies and then spend even more time weeding out the proxies that give negatives. Maybe a cap of 10 proxies should be included. (or a cap equal to the player's interface)

 

The largest use of time is the initial hack. Getting past a computer's firewall takes time. Setting up a proxy is a simple [Control/System] check.

Just checking in, curious to know what's going on.

Brass is a combination of copper and tin.

Common mistake, but Brass is copper and zinc, not tin. Copper and tin is Bronze.

 

Wiki link on brass

 

 

Edit: Stupidly mixed them up even though I had the wiki link...

Really the only reason I could see standard bullets being switched from cased to caseless would be if brass became expensive. So, if either copper or zinc became expensive then bullets would stop being cheap and people would switch to a more cost effective material, or to a more cost effective bullet type, such as caseless.

The interesting thing here is the fact that in CP the world switched to caseless ammo instead of staying with cased. So while an old soviet AK-47 might be common the cased ammo that it uses is not as common (costs twice as much due to rarity). So the gangers are either using more modern weapons that use caseless, or they are using old guns that use the rarer cased ammo.

 

But then again, cased ammo can be hand loaded easier.