Strawberry-Cream

WHAT? Don't you think the world would be a safer place if we bomb every non-Nato-ally? I am really, really convinced of that. What? Irony? Cynism? Never heard about that. Something to eat?

Hm, I suppose there already may have been such topic, but since I did not find it on the front page, I just wanted to start this one.

What about the discussion whether playing games which confront us with violence, for instance PC games, or, also, role playing games like Cyberpunk, do cause us to all become violent ourselves?

I mean, from my point of view, it's crap, I think such games are rather to vent off anger, and in the worst case may function as a catalyst if you are already have a tendency to violent behaviour.

To speak for myself: I sometimes enjoy "violent" games. Well, I don't play Counterstrike, but during a funny role playing session were we all brought our PCs as well, we played a lot of action-halflife, which I enjoyed quite a bit, although the aim is to go around and kill the other people. For me, it was about competition and fun, and I think I was quite aware that it was not real. I mean, I actually laughed after kicking a sniper off a roof, or headshooting a SMG guy with a Berette, whatever, I found it was a game.

But I am clearly able to discriminate between an imaginary game and the real world, I do not want to die, and I never would want to shoot another person.

I think blaming computer games is the same as "the violent media" before, it's the search of a cheap scapegoat so not to reflect real and more urgent problems in education and society. Especially in country where gun owning is quite easy, and there exists a gun lobby, I think the approach on firearms does more to cause violence than playing Counterstrike with your friends, the latter, from my standpoint, even helps venting anger.

Or so to say, what I read in a popular broodwar forum as signature:

- "Hello, I'd like to buy Soldier of Fortune 2 and a shotgun"

- "Sorry, we are not allowed to sell that to minors any longer. And for the shotgun: Single or double-barrelled?"

8{

As I was greeted very nicely by a very kind person from this forum when new (I did not introduce myselfe, the nice person greeted me seeing the newest member entry) to it, I want to say hello to someone new also .

So hello! ^^

Have fun with the forum, I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

So adjectives are forbidden? The plane that flew. The tomato that was red. The user that spammed.

I probably wouldn't have bothered deciding the damage . They would have gotten blasted without dice throwing, but with a good chance that chars may get up something nasty like shrapnel or whatever even when away more far than 5m. Or just a chunk of something hitting just beside their heads to scare them a bit .

If they had asked for the exact damage, I probably would have reduced it slightly from just adding up all (some energy is to be spoilt from the multiple casings and attaching them together), but in generally, it sounds okay (and fun too ^^) to me, a rule is always okay if it's fast and fun .

And Phipps, head shots really do suck (when you or a teammate are the one hit), Murph's right there . Sucks the life right out of you   .

Thanks a lot,

these are a bunch of things to work with so far .

Of course, I did not want to say that you can chose "I autofire 13 rounds", the rule with 30/skill steps seems to be good there. Of course, with a smartgun with fire control, I can set my gun to spit out only 10 bulltets when pulling the trigger.

After presenting this thread to some of my current CP group, we will playtest Joeys rule first, but I will sure try to use most rules and ideas presented. Also, I personally liked the idea of Stephane with 3 round bursts as basic, while phipps limitation of actions combined with it protects from too much dice throwing.

But I am grateful for the other ideas as well, I guess in the end we will come up with some conglomerate plus some elements of our own, of course I will give them then so you can say what you think or test it yourself.

Nice that so many people contributed, never thought a forum would work so nicely for getting help and ideas.

Hm, I am quite sorry that despite my earlier words calling not for playing blame-game but for reflection, some people lack the maturity to get along without personal insults. I think you were a bit provocated by my teasing tone, I did not want to insult or put the blame, but, as I told, to tease a bit, if you are honest, you would have enjoyed busting me with maths also . As long as it's only fun, it's okay, I did not try to diss or mock you and I am sorry if you felt insulted.

The comparison of per-capita pollution of course is allowed, as it would be unfair to give the total amount of carbon-dioxide, where we always would have to keep the population in mind. The per capita approach is a very good base for comparison, as you can clearly say, that the average Frenchman pollutes less than the average German, for instance. Also, I did only mention some of the HIGHEST polluters in Europe to keep it fair, of course, taking the average per capita pollution of whole Europe would put the U.S. (that is only North America) even further behind (or in the lead, in tearms of higher pollution).

That the U.S. does account for the highest per head emission of carbon dioxide does NOT give me any motivation to point the finger and say "those are the bad guys", in fact, I still think the european pollution is too high, although it is far less than the american. People who try to rid themselves of their responsibility by putting the blame on someone else do not get the point in such discussions, I may not lean back and say: "Phew - others pollute more, I can relax."

It should of course motivate to rethink your personal approach on using energy, fuel and water, and from what I know from friends in the states (who don't feel insulted when told that the U.S. is that high of a polluter, but see the need to act against it), many americans had or even still have the approach that they dwell in a land with abundant ressources, and that it is only convenient and the right to use energy and water as it comes, as they are in a very rich country. They say this attitude is slowly vanishing, but still some more or less have it.

Well, anyway, I would be the last to go sulking if the U.S. would manage to decrease their pollution to below E.U. levels, instead, I would applaude them and say: "Hey, let's try to take them as example.".

So, I hope you got more clearly now what my intention was, I wanted to state some facts instead of the usual heated discussions of americans and europeans trying to get on higher ground than the other. That won't help anyone, and especially not the environment.

So, murph, hope you cooled down a bit and can get on without showing your creativity in inventing names .

<gives a pat on the back>

My elder brother got the best grade in the one year military training at school in Georgia (sergeant cadet junior grade or whatever it was), and he is a Vietnam-war maniac and a constant source of tactics and tips, if asked, although he does not believe me that I am really interested in these things . Anyway, he serves as Oberleutnant in the german Luftwaffe now, and thus has not so much to do with gunfights. But I will start bugging him to tell some things .

Huh, well, I don't do LARPs also, I'm talking about P&P... you know, sitting around the table with a bunch of crazy people throwing dice .

No char...?

Sorry that's crap what you are saying.

If you add up Germany, UK and France, you get a per capita pollution of 2.7+2.5+1.9 / 3. That would be about 2,36 tons of carbon dioxide per person. Adding them up doesn't work with per capita. Simple math (wow I'm feeling sooo clever , hehe, hope you don't take the corrections personally ). Perhaps the mean latin per capita was the problem.

Also, the E.U. makes up for 53% of the worlds development aid, while only having 32% of the world currency reserves and a part of 23% on the worlds economic power. Figures from 2000.

So far .

Well, it's no real bonus, but a penalty reduction. So far, we had no one with Gun-Fu, but I would say they don't stack, because with Judo and Savate for instance, the boni don't stack, either .

But I don't know the exact rules of Gun-Fu or the way the boni are applied there, what would perhaps alter the judgement, no idea.

So far, we did not allow the 2nd weapon skill to work in melee, for instance with swords (lol), perhaps we will implement another skill for that, but with an SP multiplier of 3, I guess.

The initiative = target number is interesting, but I don't think we will use it, I think of a Solo with Combat Sense +8 and Ref 10... an 18+1D10 to hit without cyberware? Wuah . How does distance come in?

But you asked for house rules. We have rule for 3 round bursts, as we found them to bitter to give 1D3 hits PLUS the bonus of +3 to the hit. Although our rule is from a philosophical standpoint not quite fine, we use the following:

When firing a three round burst, you may chose between accuracy and potential damage, so to say. You say "I want a hit badly" or "I want to hit him the most possible", or just in between. Of course it is not quite logical that you "chose" how many bullets may hit, but the rule works fine, so it's okay. So, you "decide" how many possible hits you get, and get an according bonus on the to hit roll:

1 hit: +3

1D2 hits: +1

1D3 hits: +0

So 3 round bursts are weaker than in the original rules, but it just felt more right.

Then, we use different rules on damage. Armor can only reduce your damage to 1, and the BTM can only reduce it to 2. Meaning, a shot hitting the armor not getting through deals one damage point due to impact, but if, let's say, 3 points damage get past the armor, and you have a BTM of -2, you get 2 points of damage, as the BTM cannot reduce damage below 2. To compensate, you only make stun saves when "really" wounded, the blunt damage from non-armor penetrating shots does not count, and you can get only 2 damage per turn from armor-hits.

Also, we decrease armor by one on the location hit every time the shot COULD have come through the armor. Meaning, a hit with a 5D6 gun on a location with armor 10, only having rolled a 9, still reduces the armor by one, down to 9. A roll of 11 would have lowered the armor by one also, naturally .

Additionally, what may be relevant for combat too, we have a skill called "2nd weapon", it's got a SP multiplier of 2. It works when using two weapons simultaneously and reduces the malus of -3 on each by 1 point per hand per 2 points skill in 2nd weapon. So when you have skill 2, you have -2 on the one hand -3 on the other, skill 4 -2 / -2 and so on. The malus is lowered for the primary hand first. As you see, with skill 10 you could fire two weapons with a penalty of 0 on the primary hand a penalty of 1 (so giving you -1 on the roll) for the second hand.

This skill is no "general" skill, not everyone posesses it, players may apply at the GM for getting it. So far, only one char has it .

That's it for the moment, we are still trying to get decent auto-fire rules, we will think up some ourselves the next session, I guess.

Err, some corrections...

China is not second in the PER CAPITA pollution . Second is Australia (5.1 tons).

Also, cleaning up after itself is crap, you cannot just go and filter out carbon dioxide, as I already told, that was already integrated in the figures. The U.S. basically, under the republican administration, has reversed environmental laws and requires a lot less of "cleaning up" as for instance in the Netherlands or Germany (the Netherlands, by the way, make place number 3 in the carbon dioxide chart).

I do NOT agree with statements concerning the ideology or beliefs, and it's not anti-americanism, if I say, I wish the U.S. would show more responsibility for being the most influential nation in the world.

To bash someone because they made or make some mistakes is not the constructive or nice way, that only causes the ones criticized to block and to argument against given facts, because they feel insulted and unfairly treated. The U.S. IS the worst polluter in the world, agreed, but that should not be a reason to say "Haha, you are all dumb!" and to feel superior - in Europe, there is still a lot of pollution, and I think a friendly competition in who manages to reduce pollution faster and more efficient would serve us all more than saying "You polluting Americans" and "You arrogant Europeans".

Generally, provocating statements in these issues are destructive and don't help anything but further alienating A's and E's. In "my" forum (I use to be a moderator in a forum for an online game), you would hear a "Mäßigung." after such statements .

To the topic... I think pollution, as a real-world event, also can play a nice role in CP-games... for instance, waste dumping from a megacorp, and trying to figure it out, or all the pollution the chars see in the city, with the skies always thick with smog... also, events like the war on terrorism make, as tragic as they are, exactly the stuff for games like CP. You see, we all played Vietnam-war, or WWI or WWII games, I wonder when the first 2nd Afghan-war games will come out, and when time has passed and healed the wounds, as tasteless as it seems now, there may be a game about the eleventh September also (perhaps a counterstrike map, who knows), of course to stop the hijackers. In fact, when first seeing the pictures on the tele, I thought I was watching a movie .

As sad as these things are, they may produce an abundancy of potential for games like CP.

Well, basically, I take different approaches on combat depending on the character I play. That sounds obvious, of course, there are still some basic rules (some of which I already quoted above), but things differ a lot, mainly in the "in combat" phase. We have mainly urban fire fights, most often when you do not have things like reconnaissance before, basically, you find yourself suddenly in a firefight. So scouting and these things don't play that much of role in the beginning, we have had no military style operation so far.

The John-Woo professional, my Solo.

She of course is prepared with everything, ranging from AP ammo to spare ammo to another load of spare ammo (of course not so much that a hit in the chest will make you explode), she got spraying plaster and medical emergency accessoire, enough weapons so not to have to reload during a gunfight. Of course, some cyberware (skinweave is GREAT), cyberoptics combined with an UV-flashlight so you see something and they do not , smartgun, of course.

The problem is, she won't help much for the combat guide, as she often has to work alone, or the other teammates are not reliable combat partners (in her team, we have a netrunner, a dealer and a corporate). So basically, she has to do everything on her own, of course the other teammates are quite often a nice distraction. Thus, she uses quite an amount of risky and unconventional tactis. Called ricochets (only -5, that means for a good Solo and 1/4 weapons range, you may hit without rolling) are an option, for instance, although I do not exaggerate in the use of it, as the GMs, including myself, would scrap the rule then. Normally, she uses cover, but keeps in constant movement, and jumping sidewards over a table with two guns blazing, well, hunh, you get a huge penalty, but hey, you may still hit, and they won't hit you either most often, additionally, they often get pretty much irritated by such actions. Of course, things are a bit different against other pros, but luckily, we had just thugs, boosters and second class Solos so far.

Important is also armor, not only having some yourself without being encumbered to much (once again, skinweave is THE choice), but also looking for the weak spots of an enemy's armor, and if necessary, DO that called shot for the throat with -6 or -8, you will miss a lot, but it's better than having the bullets bounce of his armor.

As many of you may have perceived, she mainly uses handguns, when she knows that things become a bit messy, she tries to have an assault rifle around, with an attached grenade launcher. You see, when being on your own, what counts is versatility. Try to surprise the enemy, even with some "stupid" actions, if you are really good, you may even succeed. Hey, if you're not, than don't bother giving combat tips.

Style over substance, my Neo (Netrunner).

Well, style over substance, right? Wear intimidating clothes, longcoats work wonders, noone knows what you have beneath it, it may be from a pumpgun to full-scale body armor everything. Sunglasses. If combat is unavoidable, well, pretend you are cool. Fastdraw to get the first shot? Hey, you will miss anyway, so just slowly take out your two UZIs. Right, one for every hand. Looks DARN intimidating, and even as you do not have the excellent shooting skills of a real pro, you can kick some butts with it, using 3 round bursts or full auto fire. Also, having one in each hand does not mean you have to fire with both simultaneously, right? Hehe. Make use of the suppressive fire rules - nobody wants to catch a bullet, be it unaimed or not. If they keep their heads down for a while, you may come up with a plan to get out. Or your teammates can get at them - uh, well, bad idea, just try to get out, if you can kill them on the way, fine. Hm, well, a kevlar t-shirt and perhaps pants are a good idea. A helmet... well, looks to much like combat gear, but it can save your life. Oh, yes, and remeber: with two SMGs, you are not quite able to reload fast, and even the capacity of both won't last forever. Have a sidearm. You may want to reload in a safe moment even if you still have about 5-10 rounds in your weapon left. Throw the magazine away, or keep it for later use if you won't get away there so fast, but you can always buy a new one if you survive. Well, don't bother too much about anything except your own skin. If you have the choice of killing one of them, but taking a hit... hey, why the heck, who knows what booster may jump at you when you are wounded. After combat, treat your wounds, restock your equipment. Don't forget to search the corpses, of course, there may be money, ammo, spare parts, who knows, just put his 9mm in your pocket, perhaps you may need it.

The teamplayer, my Cop.

Hm, first of all, she tries to avoid combat if necessary. Try evaluating the situation beforehand - can you intimadate them, use your authority, anything? If not, where is cover, where do your teammates stand (of course you should know their proficiency with guns and their armament). Don't get out a gun too quickly, it may escalate the situation. But don't hesitate to get it out in time. Only fire when you think you can hit something, as ammo is very limited (we have S&W combat magnums, wuah , 6 shots) and reloading eats time. Have some rounds without a fast loader in your pocket so you can reload one by one in a good situation. Have AP ammo available, if this punk is a freaked out psycho with skinweave and plating. Keep your head down, move from cover to cover if you have to move. Coordinate your movement with your teammates. When the enemy is inside a house, and you want to get to the backdoor, take different turns around it, while being covered by your teammate with the rifle. Only move in turns, if you have to advance, alway the last getting forward, while being covered by the others. You can do that with 2 guys running and 2 giving cover, depending on the situation. Don't hesitate to call in reinforcements, if it is necessary. You don't have to get this psycho with your combat magnums, when you can wait in cover for the psycho-unit to blast his butt. If you have the time, aim for a shot. Even if in combat, help wounded teammates get back on their feet, it makes your side last considerably longer.

Hm, that was only a very rough overview, not in depth, but it gives some ideas that combat can be a lot different after all . Don't be afraid to adopt to a situation, and rather wait until you see what the enemies are and are up to, before you charge them with guns blazing .

I will put up some more general things later, but as they are only quite "standard", I hope until then they are already posted by someone else ^^.

So long

Quote (boneshaker @ Aug. 29 2002,12:57)

awww - she's sooo sweet   <3<3<3 Fluffy

Hey, thanks a lot .

I like her also , and it's fun not to play one of your standard CP-chars out there ^^.

Hehe, and I will post a picture of Fluffy as soon as I can.

Btw, bonie, what are your chars? Like to know about them .

So we all shall blow in our tips from gaming and real-life experience to the topics, and you will gather them all up to a nice list? Sounds funny, although I think there will be a lot of "standards" like "count your shots" "make sure to have spare ammo" "rather pick up a new weapon than waste time reloading" "fire in controlled bursts" and so on...

and, if so, shall we put in some terms of the CP rules also? Meaning: "Fire in controlled bursts to increase accuracy." or "Fire in controlled 3 round bursts, to get the full benefit of +3 for bursted fire."

?

To be honest, this synergy of car, driver and road sounds like a very familiar system to me: the train.

I mean, why make people steer their own cars, they do not become faster then. If we'd all use busses or trains, wow, great, no traffic jams, everything quite fast.

But nobody wants to do this, because we all want to be in control of where we go. Quite understandable, but that causes the traffic jams: human behaviour.

I prefer using my bycicle above buses or tubes also, I am about as fast, but I can go where I want and have the control of what to do.

Hm, never mind, I think traffic control in cities will become more of an issue, not only for paranoids that see the government conspiracies.

But, when first reading the article, something my physics teacher said came to my mind: "Crossroads splitting to 20 different roads? What effect on the traffic... hm, I guess the cars would just evaporate."

Let me think... plan B... ah, I got it:

Carpet bombing all non-Nato-allies PLUS all Nato-allies, excluding the U.S. (and perhaps the west indies, so we have a place to spend our holidays).

Tons of carbon dioxide per capita (didn't get the time period):

1.: U.S.: 5.6

...

4.: Germany: 2.7

5.: U.K.: 2.5

6.: France: 1.9

Yes, I guess the U.S. will be cleaning up the air afterwards, huh? (-> filtering, of course, is already integrated in the figures)

Or the average amount of water per capita used daily (figures from 1998):

U.S.: ~ 200 litres

E.U.: ~ 80 litres

Sometimes it's not nice to be the world leader .

Stop arasakaing around, or I will militech your sternmeyer before it esas.

Microtech parts'n'programs kiroshi that?

^^

What about gas masks? Or didn't I get all the abbreviations?

Hm, what nobody mentioned so far, in our groups age in itself is, from a certain point on, something negative.

People on the street will not think "Huh, this guy there has more skill points..." but "Hey, this punk seems to be some grandpa... let's see whether he still got the hang of it...".

Also, aging takes place even in roleplaying games, and in CP, there is no potion of immortality. So mostly, our players want to start rather young, but old enough to fit their role.

Normally, we do not modify skill points by age, as everyone ought to pick his age just with his concept of the char in mind.

With the U.S. as leader of the free nations,

I hereby call for pre-emptive anti-clown strikes.

Besides, I call for carpet bombing every non-Nato-ally.