TigerGuard

I envisage playing an only child with daddy issues. Lets call her Séraphine.

 

Once her mother left for another man she saw her father become a powerful, obsessive and malicious man. After enduring years of physical abuse she escaped his clutches and disappeared into the depths of Night City - finding refuge in one of the gangs...

 

She does whatever it takes to get by and to stay off the grid and out of his reach. All the while dealing with a burning anger inside.

 

**if this concept is way off base let me know - I've never used roles before. Ditched them when I first GM'd. Street Punks had Rank which was a gang focused, nomad skill which would fit.. but i could adapt this to be a fixer with a conscious.. helping others out of compassion rather than personal enrichment.. **

 

What are peoples thoughts?

Wow... we went from LA Ink to Flowers in the Attic real quick there

I'm deferring to Atta at this point as I was building my character as a complement to whatever story was developed for him and Eraser.

Going with the Russian it looks like. He's 28 and fled to US about 6 years ago, so he would have needed a new name and id in that time frame. Shouldn't be too hard to line that up between us

Hey Eraser, will your Fixer be able to obtain passable SIN's? Looking at my backstory, probably would need one made and that might be a good tie in between us and explain why I bother teaching the Queen B's...

At 20k and geared towards family hauler, I would not think the Fanmaster would be too uncommon - in areas where all terrain and road use meet in the middle. I don't really envision Night City as that setting, but that is why I pm'ed Eraser regarding the setting. This original thread started with a post-4th Corp war setting; and that description calls for Night City to be rebuilding after being decimated by twin nuke devices in Arasaka Tower which could mean a lot of rough terrain and uneven road conditions. That also could entail a shake up of the Corp power structure and gang territory described in the original source book.

So I guess I need to settle all my nagging questions so I can pick which character I've generated works best... so away we go -

1) Setting - standard CP2020 or post-4th Corp war? If post, kind of need direction on where to find more info regarding the pecking order of remaining Corps... I can't seem to find much about it online.

2) Are the advantages and disadvantages available this time around as previously laid out by Wraith?

3) From what I've seen of Siskin, I take it we are playing a street level game as opposed to more of the "gutter" level I've been a part of - so I am free to cyber up as much as I can afford correct?

Once we get that settled, I can decide between my wandering Korean solo, or my Russian solo who is on the run (maybe from SovOil?) and may be moonlighting as a driver for Red Cab to make a few extra credits while being around the feel of home.

Hola Gents Sorry for taking so long to accept the invite Wraith... life and all Anyways, first glance suggests the group might need a security asset or driver - or a combo in one - depending on flair and style envisioned by the primaries. Eraser, Atta, I'm open to suggestions on how I can best support you guys in this.

I saw the vehicle idea being kicked around, any feeling about the Nissan Ford Fanmaster from Chromebook 2? New retails for 20k, 5 years old and beat to hell could be in the 5k range and serve a multitude of purposes from cargo transport to mobile ambulance depending on the needs of the Doc or the Fix

It's good to see you back around here Wraith.

While the concept seems convoluted, I understand the principle. At a time when we are dedicating ourselves to pressuring nations through sanctions versus armed conflict, how do the sanctions have teeth if the leaders of the targeted nations can simply use family members to circumvent the punishment? I'm not saying it is right, proper, or even necessarily legal; but as long as dictators, terrorists, and warlords can shield their fortunes and finance their activities by using family members as bank account holders; how else are we supposed to give strength to sanctions?

Personally, I prefer the old "big stick" principle which apparently marks me as an uneducated neanderthal incapable of understanding how a strongly worded letter has reformed the regimes in North Korea, Iran, Syria, etc.

Never fear, those billions in tax dollars will now be spent outfitting the new Homeland Police Force Obama has mentioned. Kitted out in the MRAP's already purchased, loaded for bear with hollow point rounds, patrolling our streets to keep us safe from conservative extremists!

Given that the Powers that Be decided to level the "projects" in Chicago and disperse the occupants I feel vindicated

That the Powers that Be allowed the lawless, violence plagued, drug havens to exist for decades rather than single digit years, and in areas not subject to multi-national jurisdictions, I'd say the vindication is a little thin.... be that as it may -

My real disagreement with the "DMZ" concept is that such a place will be carefully walled in and this perimeter will be policed and THEN they will allow people to go in without any sort of screening and only the most cursory search upon leaving.

 

Sure that's tailor made for your Edgerunner crew but is it even vaguely in line with what might really be expected in a CP future?

 

"Fort Apache, The Bronx" was based on a real social phenomenon in the 60's but there were no walls there. Just the crushing social pressure of poverty and prejudices. No one frisked anyone at a gate there going in or out and when the police went in they had about as much to really fear as Cossacks riding into a Jewish ghetto.

If your objections to passage in and out of the Zone were addressed in such a way as to bring the situation more in line with the militaristic, near paranoid future presented in the setting, would that ease your objections? Considering that the background material lays out the existence of these Zones, is it beyond reckoning that there is a Corporation which specializes in constructing, maintaining and policing such places? Years of experience would provide a bluebrint to enforcing each Zone based on size of the community, population density, propensity for violence, cultural make up of the inhabitants, etc. Actually, it seems rather silly that such a Corp isn't detailed somewhere already. I guess it could be a subsidiary of Arasaka or Militech.... I would also think they would know the most effective way to evict / relocate the inhabitants when the Zone is reclaimed for gentrification - a la Cabrini Green.

And Malek - Power to the People!!!!! (great post sir!)

I counter that Kowloon supports Wisdom's point while specifically disproving Dog Soldier's theory. Wis states that the CZ can last decades, while Dog Soldier states it has a lifetime of 2 years. Kowloon existed in it's lawless state for roughly 4 decades.

 

I beleive the actual argument was 2 years, without some outside political interest being involved.

My apologies to Dog Soldier if that was what was implied, but that wasn't how it seemed...

Bottom line, a DMZ will have a lifespan of no more that 2 years in the modern world.

 

examples of what will follow will be range from the demolition of Detroit to burning it all to the ground.

Outside political interest was in reference to whether or not there was an "up side" to such a place -

There's no up side to allowing a place like that to exist without some sort of outside political interest being involved. Thus my prior reference to Gaza

I believe I covered how the CZ in Night City can have overlapping political interests keeping it in play in my post. Further, the fractured setting of the Cyberpunk verse directly states that these Zones exist in major cities as they provide an area for the local government to dispose of unwanted peoples who do not qualify as Corporate or State citizens. Hence, the "up side" is a place to shove the "poor and undesirables" - as seen in the Favelas of Brazil - which helps keep a majority of people in line because they do not want to be cast out. Having to ship undesirables from Night City to a lawless sandbar in the jurisdictional no-mans land between Texas / US / Mexico is an inefficient use of limited resources.

it's past time to move past the old CP tropes. Places like this are only going to exist in the middle of much broader stateless areas.

 

I have been pondering this even more. In the Bridge Trilogy William Gibson set a community on the Golden Gate Bridge. The bridge had fallen into disrepair and traffic use had been halted. Swarms of squatters then set up on the old structure.

 

At first I thought that this was ridiculous but on reflection it followed a logic. The bridge was not by any stretch valuable real estate. The cities on either end had no interest in trying to reclaim the thing as the tunnels and other modes of transport had made it obsolete.

 

So, with this in mind we could postulate a "city" forming on a sandbar in the mouth of the Rio Grand. Texas/US and Mexico may squabble over who has a claim and thus any sort of major move would be unlikely until all outside parties became fed up enough to do something besides wait for the next hurricane to wash everyone out to sea....

As far as this bit goes - I think trope is used incorrectly, I think cliche was what was intended - Kowloon City and the Favelas exist(ed) in the middle of organized, lawful areas; thus it is not a stretch or outdated concept that a disorganized US might succumb to such drastic measures for dealing with unwanted citizens. Real estate value does not always outweigh political value. The public housing projects of Chicago, Detroit, Baltimore, etc. show how local and state governments can consign people to structured areas for "their benefit," which is technically a euphemism for out of sight, out of mind. The CZ is an extension of this idea, wrapped in an overly dramatic press name intended to grab headlines. A city on a sandbar between US and Mexico jurisdictions seems more apt for a Nomad enclave.

The Kowloon walled city owed its existence to the political black hole created by the competing interests of the British and Chinese. The impending return of Hong Kong to China, resolved many of the circumstances, and led to the subsequent demolition of the walled city. As an Example, it kinda proves Dog Soldier's and Comp's argument.

I counter that Kowloon supports Wisdom's point while specifically disproving Dog Soldier's theory. Wis states that the CZ can last decades, while Dog Soldier states it has a lifetime of 2 years. Kowloon existed in it's lawless state for roughly 4 decades.

Kowloon City provides an excellent blueprint for what can happen in an area of conflicting jurisdictions. Here in Colorado Springs, there are several areas inside the city limits which are county owned, therefor the Sheriff office must repsond rather than the police and businesses which the city despises (adult themed, firework stands, medical marijuana, etc.) can more easily set up shop. In any setting where there is multi-jurisdictional interference, cleaning up or removing something like the Combat Zone may be a virtual nightmare. If Night City, the Corporatations, and just for fun throw in the Military Base across the Bay all have over-lapping claims, responsibility, and / or jurisdiction, then it may be impossible to actually move on the Zone.

Even removing the overlap issue may not cure the situation. If only one of the 3 listed entities has jurisdiction, the other two may be acting in such a manner as to promote the instability in the Zone for it's own purposes - Arasaka sends in operatives to hone their skills, Militech uses the gangs to test out experimental weaponry, and the Military is using every dirty trick in order to promote their continued presence in the area.

The Favela's also provide an excellent extension for why so many people have ended up here. The cyberpunk setting, and genre in general, provides a world where the haves and have nots are at even bigger extremes. People without the proper documentation do not have "rights" in most cases, so the Zone is the catch all place where the city dumps people without papers. Illegal immigrants, homeless, and obviously lower end gangs will end up here and despite the high crime rate, they will manage to not turn the place to ash overnight - just like Kowloon City and the Favela's of Rio didn't turn in to funeral pyres.

The Combat Zone could easily have "walls" simply due to a power vacuum, and powerful neighbors. Each section of wall only protects once neighborhood...

 

"We're just walling in our area - it's a coincidence that every neighborhood surrounding the poorest part of the city decided to do the same."

Visiting my wife's home in the suburbs of Manila, it was quite common to see each of the Barrios have walls and guard posts to separate them from the next. The closer to Manila / Makati you got, the nicer and more secure these structures became.

As far as moving them all in to the Zone at once, all it takes is one good natural disaster - flood, earthquake, hurricane - and see how quickly the government responds to these poor souls in need. How many were evacuated from New Orleans after Katrina, never to return? And now the Mayor of New York is saying as many as 46,000 people may need "relocation" following Sandy. Strange how the people who are dispossessed are the poor, and the neighborhoods they vacated are upgraded to make way for new residents.

Voice of Freedom radio / tv / youtube station.. whatever. Broadcasting from the Zone makes a lot of sense since the Corp or Government Ops would have difficulty getting at the place. While the Gangs may not listen to the station, they would probably be highly offended by outsiders coming in to try and take it out.

Since people entering the Zone aren't searched, they can bring in all sorts of information that the station can use and broadcast.

Another possible (albeit, less likely) business opportunity would be Merc / Military recruiter office. Want a SIN? Want to get out of the ghetto? Well just sign your name on the dotted line, serve 5 years in sub-saharra Africa / South Am and you and your family can rejoin polite society.

We are still testing the rules and revisions will more than likely need to be made. While I agree that there is the potential for psychological addiction, I didn’t want to further complicate the mechanics of the cyber enhancement with another die roll or chart. I would much rather make such an addiction a narrative component which a game master can weave into their story.

 

Example: In a stressful situation, where a character has to complete a difficult task and the neural boost isn’t available, the PC may have to make a COOL roll. A failed roll adds an additional penalty to completing the task successfully, as they are having trouble concentrating; possibly thinking about how much easier this would be if they could just have that boost.

 

Would it be sufficient in the description of the rules for this cyber-enhancement, to indicate that there is a risk of psychological addiction?

I think fluff and roleplaying is an excellent way to handle the addiction possibility. Too many of my players just shrug off consequence charts, but making them roleplay through the stress of not hitting the button would be fun and hopefully traumatic to the character.

I can't discuss about it being "cool", but I'd like to point out it would be really not practical.

While I agree with the reasoning of the post, if it was truly applied in the business world how many Bugatti's and Learjet's would be sold to Corp execs? After all, a Smartcar does everything a Bugatti does for much less, and why send a plane carrying 5 or 6 people when you could just put them on a standard flight?

Cyberpunk is supposed to be about style over substance. Any mom and pop grocery can get a german shepherd to guard their store, and any pimp can have his cyber'ed dog intimidate tricks and johns. Sure, you could argue for the cyborg animal - until it gets hacked by a pissed off Runner who reprograms the animals to go destroy the owner's prized rose garden.

But a genetically recreated animal - especially a long extinct one - presented to the head of the Corporation by a junior department head looking to make a name for himself is something of note. Not only does the junior exec get recognized by the boss, but the company as a whole is now on the cover of multiple trade magazines, zoos and wildlife preserves are calling with enquiries, Warlords and Dictators send requests for similar intimidating creatures, and PETA and animal rights groups keep the company in the news by protesting and campaigning against the project.

Overall, one impractical project - hopefully funded as part of some silly military grant regarding enhanced genetic animals - gains the company a much larger return in free advertising, and media exposure.

Beyond the failed save roll chart, wouldn't there be the chance of addiction? I mean, you push the big red button and you are Einstein for a flash.... and now you have to wait an hour to feel that rush of brilliance again? I don't think so.

Possibly already been asked here, but if Trayvon was "concerned" about being followed why didn't he use his cell to call the cops and report this suspicious fellow following me? We will never know for sure since he is dead, but it seems to me the rational thing to do when being stalked is to call the cops. Kind of sad really, but I'm willing to bet I know the anti-Trayvon posts that would e up if he had killed Zimmerman out of his "fear" rather than calling the trained professionals who handle these situations. Speaking of those folks, anyone still have that link to the over-adrenalined police response to the Miami shooting from last year?

Found this on Kickstarter today, and thought more than a few members here might be interested -

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cyberg...rome-online-mmo

I'm not against house ruling the current armor system into oblivion if it really needs it, but i suspect that a well thought out house rule or two can just fix the whole thing. So instead of boasting of your 10 years of experience, show me what you know from it. Do you have a house rule for this? why/why not? Is staged penetration all i need?

I have a very simple house rule that should resolve this issue for you - it's called a story line. There have been numerous posts citing examples from experienced GM's on how to resolve over armored characters - acids and other liquids which will affect exposed areas, gas or flame weapons, heavy objects dropped from heights, attention from law enforcement, and social stigma's (which should be huge in any game that repeatedly states it is STYLE OVER SUBSTANCE!!!!!). Your guys want to drop $2,000 on an SP22 trenchcoat? Fine, what's the protection against the garrote that just slipped over his head? And how is it holding up against the mono-knife the assassin slipped in to his back.

The rules, charts, and supplements aren't there to move the story along, that's your job. If you are in an arms race with your characters, it's because you are allowing the story to go in that direction.

Some of you talk like killing the characters is a reasonable solution to the problem of mechanical imbalance. Remember that they are the detailed and main characters in a novel of your making. They strive against the system, try to make a difference, maybe die trying, but never just die. If Hiro got randomly splattered in chapter 3, Snow Crash would not be such a good book. We're telling a story here, with every session, every encounter, and endangering the story to fix some mechanical problem is bad. The mechanics keep the story alive, we should use them for that.

You keep arguing that it is an issue of mechanics when it just isn't. Hiro doesn't randomly die in chapter 3 because Gibson didn't want the story to go that way - Hiro had no input in the decision. As the GM you are the author, and if you don't want over armored, gun toting, cyber pyschos rampaging through your story it is up to you to stop it, not the weapon and armor equipment lists.

Colorado is an open carry state - meaning any citizen can carry a hand gun in a non-concealed fashion without repercussion. I see a person do this maybe once every 5 years. Why so infrequent if it is "legal"? Because they get stopped and harrassed by the police at every turn, refused entry in to businesses, and state offices. Legal does not mean accepted

Are the NAFTA nations overtly supporting this activity, or is it all plausible deniabilty and the characters are on their own if they get caught?

I am actually interested to see this pass and attempt to be used. As a nation we have grown complacent and accepting as the federal government has taken more and more power for itself. Will exercising this authority actually cause the disgruntled masses to openly resist and maybe even get angry enough to put down their xbox controllers, or turn off this week's Survivor episode?

I've been amused by the various Occupy protests as I watch the protesters dressed in designer brand clothes, clutching their half calf, no foam, Starbuck lattes while they listen to their ipods and chant about the unfair corporate greed. Obviously, they don't get it. Will the local NRA chapters, or White Supremacist faction, or Black Panther Party member be so docile when faced by the use of this authority? Will Compton be swept aside as easily as the camping tents if the Crips or Bloods are added to the terrorist watch list? These sorts of draconian measures work well in countries with unarmed citizenry, and limits on means of communication - both of which are lacking here. Shut down the internet? Ok, what about all the ham radio operators? Round up the heavily armed whacko's? Hmm, you'll get a few before word gets out and then people will start to resist... loudly.

Many members of our government - from all sides - have dreamed of a docile, controllable citizenry and this is just another step down that path. We've complained and grumbled as Homeland Security has intruded further and further in to our lives... we've bitched and moaned as our elected officials have ignored the interests of their constituents and lined their own pockets... and we keep saying someone should do something, just not us cause American Idol is about to start or I just reached the next level of Modern Warfare 3 and those graphics are so killer......

Well, the fork in the road to our future is approaching and this bill may just be the catalyst to make the citizenry face the choice of increased oppression or armed resistance. Personally, I'm thinking it's time to relocate....

Rule 43 prohibits this, as al-Awlaki would not have been present during any opening stage of the proceedings.

In 1993, the Supreme Court revisited Rule 43 in the case of Crosby v. United States. The Court unanimously held, in an opinion written by Justice Harry Blackmun, that Rule 43 does not permit the trial in absentia of a defendant who is absent at the beginning of trial.

 

fair point, never heard of that rule. so that takes the conventional courts off the table, FISA might have different rules and I'm sure there's a work around somewhere in the bowels of the patriot act. be that as it may, however, there's still a third branch of the government that could provide a check on this power. the matter could simply be reviewed by the house select intelligence committee. the point I'm trying to make is that somebody needs to review these findings, it can't rest with just one man from one branch of government to order Americans killed.

 

Further more, by removing himself from the jurisdiction of American courts, and placing himself on an active battlefield in open support of anti-American forces, he was subject to the same rules of warfare visited upon American citizens who willingly joined the German armed forces in the 40's or the Confederates who took up arms against the Union.

 

Yemen is an active battlefield? we have a deceleration of war against them? an authorization of force from congress? are there us troops down in the trenches in Yemen? didn't think so. would you feel so nonchalant if he'd been sitting at a cafe in paris or London i wonder?

 

can you find me a picture of this man holding a weapon? you claim he was taking part in armed conflict after all, should be easy enough to dig up right?

Here are the pics of al-Awlaki holding weapons -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...-al-Awlaki.html

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/9-11-anni...7027/story.html

and here is the information on the conflict raging in Yemen -

http://www.historyguy.com/yemen_saada_war.htm

Some nations still believe they have the right to wage a war without our approval! Additionally, I never claimed he was participating in a US war zone, I said he had placed himself in an active battlefield.

As far as one man from one branch making this decision -

Some details about how the administration went about targeting Awlaki emerged on Tuesday when the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, Representative Dutch Ruppersberger, was asked by reporters about the killing.

The process involves "going through the National Security Council, then it eventually goes to the president, but the National Security Council does the investigation, they have lawyers, they review, they look at the situation, you have input from the military, and also, we make sure that we follow international law," Ruppersberger said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/05/...E79475C20111005

So we've debunked the trial in absentia, the one man decision, and the peace loving herbalist living in Shangri-La killed by the religious wacko, conservative, right-wing President... what's next?

And for the record, I can't believe that in a discussion on how our rights are in jeopardy, our privacy is being invaded, and our laws circumvented, you site the Patriot Act as a means to justify this action.

Yet you trust the government to carry on in absentia trials "just this once" for just this one criminal?

 

the courts try people in absencia all the time, usually it's people who skip the country to avoid their day in court but we have prosecuted people who reside outside the us in this way. dropping a hellfire missile up their ass is the only new aspect in play with my plan, which is really much more efficient than sending in a team to extract someone from a hostile country. when i think of the president being able to strike down anyone on the face of the earth with no oversight, all i can think is "what if nixon had that power?" you look back and we have put some petty and vindictive sons of bitches in the white house over the years, and i don't like the notion of them ordering people killed without some sort of review process.

 

one little addendum, in case it wasn't already clear. my objection applies only to lethal findings against American citizens. if they're not American citizens they have no standing in American courts till they're on our soil, so i really don't care if the government sends predator drones or kill squads after anyone else.

Rule 43 prohibits this, as al-Awlaki would not have been present during any opening stage of the proceedings.

In 1993, the Supreme Court revisited Rule 43 in the case of Crosby v. United States. The Court unanimously held, in an opinion written by Justice Harry Blackmun, that Rule 43 does not permit the trial in absentia of a defendant who is absent at the beginning of trial.

Further more, by removing himself from the jurisdiction of American courts, and placing himself on an active battlefield in open support of anti-American forces, he was subject to the same rules of warfare visited upon American citizens who willingly joined the German armed forces in the 40's or the Confederates who took up arms against the Union.

When we choose to set aside the limits of the constitution for pragmatic reasons, we become a nation ruled only by power, where due process of law can be set aside whenever those in power decide it should be.

1998 - President commits perjury in Federal Court - serves remainder of second term after Senate acquits.

1986 - Administration sells weapons to finance an illegal operation - underlings serve jail time or have charges dismissed / pardoned. President serves remainder of second term, Vice President wins election to President 1988.

1962 - 1973 - Project 112 - unknowing US military personnel are exposed to biological and chemical agents to test the weapon effects.

1960's / 70's - illegal military actions carried out in Cambodia and Laos.

1953 - CIA begins Operation MKULTRA - series of tests designed to study various drug effects and ability to gain mental control over test subjects, most of whom are never told what the drugs being tested are intended to do - including US servicemen.

1945 - Operation Paperclip - US government offers Nazi scientists amnesty in exchange for their continued work.

1932 - 1972 - Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment - US Public Health Service researchers withhold treatment from 400 black males infected with syphilis in order to to observe the effects of the disease on the human body.

1900 - US Army infects 4 Filipino prisoners with bubonic plague and induce beriberi in 29 other prisoners.

Mere highlights from the last century of our history. Beyond underlings like Oliver North, or the Nixon 69, where are the administrations which have been toppled? We can go further back and discuss our activities as a colonial power, our treatment of Native Americans and our multiple treaties with them, and our founding as a nation of the people, for the people, by the people - as long as you're a Caucasian male.(yes I know that is from the Gettysburg Address as opposed to the We the People of the preamble...)

I strongly believe in the American Ideal, and firmly believe that the United States is one of the greatest nations in existence. But I also know that we are led by a government and no government has ever been concerned more about it subjects than its grip on power.