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TigerGuard

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Posts posted by TigerGuard

  1. Yet you trust the government to carry on in absentia trials "just this once" for just this one criminal?

     

    the courts try people in absencia all the time, usually it's people who skip the country to avoid their day in court but we have prosecuted people who reside outside the us in this way. dropping a hellfire missile up their ass is the only new aspect in play with my plan, which is really much more efficient than sending in a team to extract someone from a hostile country. when i think of the president being able to strike down anyone on the face of the earth with no oversight, all i can think is "what if nixon had that power?" you look back and we have put some petty and vindictive sons of bitches in the white house over the years, and i don't like the notion of them ordering people killed without some sort of review process.

     

    one little addendum, in case it wasn't already clear. my objection applies only to lethal findings against American citizens. if they're not American citizens they have no standing in American courts till they're on our soil, so i really don't care if the government sends predator drones or kill squads after anyone else.

     

    Rule 43 prohibits this, as al-Awlaki would not have been present during any opening stage of the proceedings.

    In 1993, the Supreme Court revisited Rule 43 in the case of Crosby v. United States. The Court unanimously held, in an opinion written by Justice Harry Blackmun, that Rule 43 does not permit the trial in absentia of a defendant who is absent at the beginning of trial.

     

    Further more, by removing himself from the jurisdiction of American courts, and placing himself on an active battlefield in open support of anti-American forces, he was subject to the same rules of warfare visited upon American citizens who willingly joined the German armed forces in the 40's or the Confederates who took up arms against the Union.

  2. When we choose to set aside the limits of the constitution for pragmatic reasons, we become a nation ruled only by power, where due process of law can be set aside whenever those in power decide it should be.

     

     

    1998 - President commits perjury in Federal Court - serves remainder of second term after Senate acquits.

     

    1986 - Administration sells weapons to finance an illegal operation - underlings serve jail time or have charges dismissed / pardoned. President serves remainder of second term, Vice President wins election to President 1988.

     

    1962 - 1973 - Project 112 - unknowing US military personnel are exposed to biological and chemical agents to test the weapon effects.

     

    1960's / 70's - illegal military actions carried out in Cambodia and Laos.

     

    1953 - CIA begins Operation MKULTRA - series of tests designed to study various drug effects and ability to gain mental control over test subjects, most of whom are never told what the drugs being tested are intended to do - including US servicemen.

     

    1945 - Operation Paperclip - US government offers Nazi scientists amnesty in exchange for their continued work.

     

    1932 - 1972 - Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment - US Public Health Service researchers withhold treatment from 400 black males infected with syphilis in order to to observe the effects of the disease on the human body.

     

    1900 - US Army infects 4 Filipino prisoners with bubonic plague and induce beriberi in 29 other prisoners.

     

    Mere highlights from the last century of our history. Beyond underlings like Oliver North, or the Nixon 69, where are the administrations which have been toppled? We can go further back and discuss our activities as a colonial power, our treatment of Native Americans and our multiple treaties with them, and our founding as a nation of the people, for the people, by the people - as long as you're a Caucasian male.(yes I know that is from the Gettysburg Address as opposed to the We the People of the preamble...)

     

    I strongly believe in the American Ideal, and firmly believe that the United States is one of the greatest nations in existence. But I also know that we are led by a government and no government has ever been concerned more about it subjects than its grip on power.

  3. it's so sad to see how quickly people who at all other times exercise a healthy distrust of governments suddenly jump into lock step when somebody mentions the "boogie man" of the age, in this case terrorists. you're a fool if you trust the government to do this "just this once."

     

    Yet you trust the government to carry on in absentia trials "just this once" for just this one criminal?

     

    The rule of law is the only thing that makes America exceptional or virtuous, if we abandon it then we sacrifice the very thing we claim to defend.

     

    Now we are a country that:

     

    Spies on its own citizens

    Searches and Confiscates property without warrant or cause

    Employs military equipment & forces domestically

    Imprisons more people than any where else in the world

    Detains without trial

    Extradites detainees to undisclosed locations

    Tortures

    and

    Assassinates

     

     

    We cripple ourselves financially in order to spend massively more on our military than the rest of the world combined in order to perpetuate a constant state of warfare against nouns.

     

    These actions are what America once defined itself as being against. If we are for them now, that is tantamount to conceding defeat of the ideals used to justify the actions in the first place.

     

    When does your definition of Now enter in to our history? None of the negative aspects you list are occurring for the first time in our history. On the other hand, I'd like to hear the tale of the government that hasn't committed most of the crimes on your list.

     

    And while we wring our hands over our massive military budget, we simultaneously demand that our military respond to countless natural disasters across the globe and act as policeman to the world in order to combat nouns like famine, disaster, and epidemic. Foreign policy has little effect without a successful military - just ask the UN.

     

     

  4. As much as I hate big government, look on with dread as surveillance cameras become not only common place but accepted, and the TSA tramples our privacy, I actually have no issue with the action in question here.

     

    If al-Awlaki had stayed within the United States to spread his message then I would agree he is subject to our laws and is defended by the rights all Americans are privileged to have. Instead he left the country, entered in to an active war zone, and participated in actions deemed to be treasonous. If we had sent forces to arrest him we would have been in violation of international laws, and the conflict within Yemen prevented that nation from apprehending him - and we can debate if they would have even if the chance arose - so he was eliminated in accordance with being an enemy combatant. I do not believe this action required any sort of trial in absentia - I believe that is an even more dangerous precedent to set. Can you imagine how the government can run amok with the war on drugs if they start trying defendants in absentia while the accused drug smuggler is on vacation in Mexico?

     

    Do I have a problem with the US government maintaining a kill list that includes American citizens? Sure I do - if said citizens are residing within the US. Foreign nations are under no requirement to recognize the rights Americans are given under our laws, so seeking refuge in such a country in order to carry out treasonous endeavors equally reduces your ability to invoke said rights.

  5. Good to hear things are good with your Mom. Sorry the job market isn't any better, for what it's worth I'm still in the same boat with ya!

     

    Good to see you back on the board and hope things continue to improve for you dude. :)

  6. I don't know that the number of faces is any more limited than the Gilligan's. Beside's, once you introduce a Marilyn Monroe to the group, then you are free to attach other fringe members of the Kennedy mythos such as Sammy Davis Jr. Dean Martin, and Frank Sinatra. Yes I realize they aren't Kennedy's, but you can't really talk about Jack or Bobby without Marilyn and the Rat Pack - and it opens more possibilities for the group.

     

     

  7. OOC:

     

    So is his $10,000 the wholesale amount he is looking for or the street value? I ask this here since it seems from the exchange we have conducted this sort of business before and I would know which figure he was throwing out to me. My only experience with such things personally is movie based so I do not have a firm grasp of how it works.

     

    Also, would I know the street value (assuming he is quoting wholesale price) of what he is offering, or would that be the specialty of one of my facemen?

  8. :blink: That goes beyond any definition of bad day / week / month! I'll keep some positive thoughts for you both and hope everything turns out well.
  9. OOC:

     

    So what is the crew up to at this point? Are they attending to the tasks I've asked, or are they standing around like sheeple?

  10. Should have asked at the time, but as it is a (hopefully) minor amount I over looked it - how much did the beer and candy cost? I want to update my sheet so I know how much cash I have on hand. Thanks :)

  11. OOC:

     

    Wanting to hit the nearest quik-mart on the way to the new place to grab a case of beer to toss in the truck and a bag of individually wrapped candies - suckers, peppermint mints, jolly ranchers, whatever, as long as they are separately wrapped.

  12. ok by me.

     

    was wondering about my contacts, the email you sent me seems to be the same I sent you without any updates or changes?

  13. From my vantage, it depends on our mission and style. I've laid out my proposed aversion to harming kids so I would get along well with your moral veteran, but if we are going to be employed taking on a lot of young gangers then the moral flexibility of the other might be more needed.

  14. I was toying with a filipino born fixer. Just rough sketch at this point so I can switch gears to be accommodating if you have a solid idea already. knowing team purpose and structure might sway me as well.

     

  15. ok, first noob question - I'm working out a character now, and I need to know if I have to allocate funds for a place to stay, or if that is too insignificant to worry about? If I'm paying, is it just standard costs per the main book?

  16. I'm interested Wraith, but I have to admit 0 experience in an online setting. If you get enough interest to get something going and are willing to allow me to learn as I go, I'm in.

  17. Jordan is not listed as one of the nations destroyed in the conflagration, nor is it listed as a surviving entity. It seems that perhaps the nation is destroyed in another manner. The nation does not have enough water resources or sustainable agriculture to feed its population. Also, it has been a destination for "medical tourism" since the '70's.

     

    The population is already scrambling for food as the world situation worsens and tensions rise. The refugees fleeing the fallout from the nuclear attacks flood in to Jordan from eastern Iraq, south east Syria, and parts of Saudi Arabia. A population already taxed to feed itself is inundated by people seeking the advanced medical clinics Jordan is known for. The situation rapidly deteriorates and the chaos consumes the nation. The areas of the country that can actually sustain farming quickly become armed camps or get over-run and destroyed by hungry mobs. The Israelis and Syrians reinforce their borders with armor and infantry units, probably occupying any usable land nearby for "defensive" purposes. The central government collapses, leaving only isolated farmers and marauding military units to oppose the panzerboys who routinely travel across the vast, uninhabited desert.

     

    Amman becomes a fortified city. The religious and cultural diversity that the city is known for allows the various groups to unite in an us versus them scenario as they forcibly put down the riots in the refugee camps around the city. This is an extended and bloody conflict which prevents the authorities from doing much of anything across the country. By the time the situation is under control, the countryside is lost.

     

    The port of Aqaba is decimated by the Israelis as they attempt to stem the flow of refugees who are using the facilities in an attempt to reach safety in Israel. The ruins of Aqaba become a smugglers paradise, while all legitimate cargo now passes through Eilat, Israel - an unfortunate and unforeseeable result of such an ugly conflict according to Israel.

     

    I can picture Petra once again becoming a hub of desert trading as the Bedouin combine modern tech and ancient architecture to revitalize the water management system that made the city a power in the centuries before Christ. There wouldn't be a lot of neon and chrome, but I can see camel caravans make camp around a panzer motor pool. Perhaps this is unrealistic based on modern trade routes, but the idea of those beautiful stone carved facades housing cybered smugglers is inspiring.

  18. Perhaps this is covered in another post, but what becomes of the poppy and coca areas affected by the DEA designer plagues? Can they still be utilized for other crops or are they rendered infertile for some period? The Beqaa Valley of Lebanon is well known for the wine vineyards which have been in existence since before Roman times, but also well known for their narco fields. If they can no longer produce poppy, can they be turned in to a breadbasket for the Middle East? Of course, that is dependent on whether the region's crop lands have been affected by nuclear fallout in a manner similar to Turkey. The description that Israel and Syria survive virtually intact might indicate that Lebanon is spared from much of the fallout.

     

    Whether the Syrian and Israeli forces ever withdrew in '90, as they did irl, there can be quite an argument made that Beirut becomes a very vibrant port by 2020. The Christian sectors would be more tolerant of EC businesses, morals, and technology. Punks passing through would not face the religious prejudice evident in places like Turkey. Likewise, the Muslim sectors would have an easier time engaging in trade with the nomads of the blighted lands to the east. Also, they would be a nice buffer to goods being sent to Syria which might not be allowed to pass through their ports for various reasons. Even if the Syrian / Israeli occupation did not end, a free city of Beirut would be a perfect place for the various sides in the conflict to meet and negotiate, a new Casablanca if you would.

  19. I would still however warn against jettisoning the idea of the EU (EC) trying to come to some sort of agreement with its southern neighbors.

     

    I am not jettisoning this idea at all, I am merely suggesting that a nuclear Libya may not fit in to the proposal. General al-Gaddafi is well known for his rhetoric, and has routinely been accused of using terrorists to further his own agenda. If his government was approached by the EC to enter in to some sort of partnership as a junior member, would he be the type to demand a more equal footing based on the threat of his nuclear arsenal? Further, given the armed reaction to illegal immigrants by EC forces as early as 1994 (Eurosource Plus) I am inclined to wonder how cooperative Libya would be to overtures from the EC. Part of the history of the game is a dirtier, nastier world than what we currently live in, which is why I can see the EC taking part in the conflict only after it has clearly gone beyond the point of no return. And even then only in a very limited manner to try and secure their interests in the remnants of North Africa.

     

     

    To begin with, the African Sourcebook is not canon, and while it is a good resource to begin with, I would take some of what it says with a grain of salt. When you say that the EU may have had a small hand in the situation in Libya, does it expressly come out and say that they used their nukes in the attack?

     

    I acknowledge that the African Sourcebook is not canon. However, I was under the understanding that this thread was an attempt to garner ideas that could be used in creating another fan based sourcebook for detailing the Middle East - a creation which would, likewise, not be canon.

     

     

    You are aware that Nuclear material can be tracked to its country of origin?

     

    I knew you could track nuclear material, but I was not aware that there were forensic techniques for identifying the material once it had been detonated. I did find quite a bit of information about these abilities and techniques at this site:

     

    http://cstsp.aaas.org/files/Complete.pdf

     

    and the most compelling statement I found in the article was - Following a nuclear explosion, trained forensics teams would need to promptly gather highly radioactive samples from fallout and from the atmosphere. These samples then would have to be safely and promptly transported to United States and possibly other laboratories. Close coordination among the FBI (if the explosion occurs in the United States)

    and/or local authorities (if elsewhere), first responders, and forensics teams is necessary. Given a full shooting war involving multiple devices across the entire Middle East, followed by armed conflict (possible to infer, but again not noted in the canon) how would you get teams in to collect the samples promptly? Also, given what is canon, who would care? The US has just had martial law imposed, so news would be filtered in the first place, and in the second place if you are trying to keep your family in Chicago from starving do you really care about the Muslims and Jews attempting to eradicate each other? The EC is hit hard by hurricanes and spring tides leaving hundreds of thousands without shelter - would they really believe anyone who accused their government of aiding the conflagration? With South America, Africa, and Asia embroiled in there own conflicts, which nations would have the time or desire to look beyond the facade of this conflict?

     

     

    A sticky situation at best. Adding nuclear involvement to the mix is just a recipe for disaster…at least for France. Nuclear annihilation would not induce these countries to back off. It would be a call to arms for Islamic militants.

     

    That was why I suggested the EC only became involved after everything was beyond repair, and only in a manner that would allow them to target the strongest of the militant camps which might have been in the eastern Algerian zone. The situation would allow the EC to strike specific, high priority targets while deflecting the blame on the Israeli / Arab conflict.

     

     

    I don’t think that these would really be kamikaze bombers. The reference may be to older style nuclear payloads that are dropped from strategic bombers rather than deployed as warheads on a missile or rocket. Many of the countries in the region had either US or Soviet made aircraft including some long range bombers. Crashing into a target (kamikaze-style) is not the most effective use of a nuclear warhead...unless it's a nuclear tipped bunker buster. For the greater number of nuclear warheads an air burst maximizes the destructive power of the device (shockwave and EMP blast).

     

    The language led me to believe it meant kamikaze, or why use the term suicide bomber? A long range bomber loaded with 10 nuclear bombs is an easy target, but 10 fighters each carrying one bomb accompanied by 30 identical fighters acting as a screen / decoy increases your chances of hitting the target, even though the delivery system is, in and of itself, more ineffective.

     

     

    I should note that I am a bonfide conspiracy theorist, so I view all of the Cyberpunk storyline through these tinted glasses. And that may be why I take a darker view of what actions people might take, or are capable of.

     

     

  20. No, the date is not canon. I chose it because you can easily google Ramadan and then attach that as the date, so it was just totally random.

     

    I do not take in to account many of the real history events after the late '80's, such as Total S.A. and the French support of Libya, simply because of the alternate timeline in the game. The increased power the EC enjoys in the Cyberpunk history might have steered a course away from these actions. In the alternate environment we can hypothesize a half dozen reasons why there is this shift in policy.

     

     

    As for the EC involvement, it was only in regard to Libya, not the entire conflict. Based on the write-up in the African Conflict Sourcebook on Datafortress, I noted that the eastern border of Algeria suffered some damage as a result of the attacks on Libya and insinuated that perhaps the EU had a small hand in this in order to assist their moves in Algeria, Tunisia, and Morocco. Once it became evident that Libya was going to be devastated in a shooting war, why not make the most of the situation? This would play in to helping form the Euro-Med Zone since the true wild card would be removed from the deck. There is also an argument to be made for the possibility that the EU would argue that if Libya is totally wiped out fast enough, perhaps the other nations would be so shocked as to back off from the brink they stood on, thus saving their investments in places like Iran. Similar to the discussion that Dresden was so badly devastated at the end of WWII as a warning to Russia, not simply as an error on the part of the US and Britain.

     

     

    The US involvement would be small, as I said maybe one or two subs. This occurs just after martial law is enacted in 1996, so it might just be the new military government flexing it's muscles to the EU. More likely though, it would be a calculated move to keep Israel - our one true ally in the region - alive and prevent the EU from making the Mediterranean their private lake via the EU-Med Zone. A lot of mileage can be made diplomatically by coming to the aid of a friend when others stand by and watch - or can be accused of aiding the opposition. The scar across the American psyche vis-a-vis the '93 bombing of New York, and the '94 Pittsburgh accident dictates that this assistance is kept to a low enough level that it can not be proved officially, yet provides the necessary messages to Israel and the EC. Publicly it's all about plausible deniability while privately it's about who's got your back.

     

    I agree that Iraq would make Iran their primary target and that they would not have the means for delivering long range nuclear payloads through missles. The Future Shock timeline in the main book has the following passage :

     

    Only Egypt, Syria, and Israel survived intact; their aircraft were able to shoot down the incoming suicide bombers.

     

    This seems to indicate that Egypt and Syria were mostly targeted by other Arab nations as Israel would use missles or artillery to deliver nuclear payloads, while Iraq and Iran would likely resort to kamikaze bombers for their long range targets.

     

     

  21. Being new to the board I don't want to step on any toes since this seems to be a project of the upper echelons, but if I might throw out a few pieces for consideration I would like to -

     

     

    As described in the timeline - tensions are escalating throughout the area. Rumors suggest that the Iraqi's have purchased nuclear missles from the renegade Soviets and Eastern Europeans looking to make fast cash (these rumors turn out to be true). There is also talk that Libya is trying to secure it's own weapons from the same sources. On January 10th, 1997 (the first day of Ramadan), the port of Tobruk is engulfed in a mushroom cloud. Everyone quickly begins to point fingers at who is responsible - but the most popular theory in the West is that a weapon bought from the Sovs detonates while being delivered. Is this the result of mis-handling, decaying weaponry, or a black ops by someone opposed to Libya going nuclear? And that wouldn't be a short list - the Israelis, Americans, and even the Europeans might be the top of this list, but there would also be many African nations unhappy at seeing their neighbor gain such power over them.

     

    Regardless of how, why or who, the fallout across the Middle East is just as hot as that falling on Tobruk. The Islamic nations begin rattling their swords and decrying the heathen Zionists. The Israeli's deny any part in the situation, but warn loudly that they are prepared to defend themselves against the zealots on the pulpits. Since all militaries are already on high alert because of the local tensions it only takes one small incident - an unscheduled flight, a non-responsive airplane entering airspace, or even the appearance of a meteor large enough to be picked up on someone's radar suddenly - and everything spirals. The missles begin flying, but the Islamic nations are not unified in their strikes. For every missle that Iran targets Israel with, they have also targeted one against their own allies to prevent them from being too powerful after the exchange. Iraq likewise, has used 1/3 of their small supply to strike at Iranian targets, 1/3 sent against Israel, and 1/3 against political opponents in Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Yemen, and Libya. Israel has launched a full strike on everyone - secretly supplemented by one or two US subs off the coast, thus making their strikes even more powerful. Do some of the European nations also add a bit to the conflagration in Libya in an attempt to cow Algeria?

     

    Libya is hit the hardest. Not only are major cities and economic centers hit, but the large desert regions are also targeted in an attempt to wipe out the terrorist training camps said to litter the dunes. Israel weathers the storm better than most due to their anti-missle systems bought from the US. The Islamic nations are not as lucky as their top government officials have been wiped out either by the nukes, or Mossad hit teams, and local governments are not prepared to handle the catastrophe. In some parts, military units carry out orders issued prior to the launchings and attack key targets in neighboring countries which only adds to the damage. With the most powerful members gone, factional fighting breaks out for control of the various nations. Soon areas see an increase in violence between the different sects of the religion - as witnessed in Iraq these last few years, and during the Iran-Iraq war from 80-88 - or between differing religions in places like Lebanon. It's not long before national groups begin to make power grabs for land and independence - such as the Kurds in northern Iraq and southern Turkey (with limited, tactical nuclear strikes deployed by the Turks), and the Palestinians in occupied lands and refugee camps throughout the Middle East. Powerful military units, government centers, and economic supplies (oil) become the targets of enemy WMD's and tactical nukes deployed by the Israeli's.

     

    Based on maps of the region, population centers are densely located along coastal regions and major water sources. If the water sources are now polluted by nuclear fallout and residual biological agents, how far can you travel across the desert regions? If the cities that were the center of transport and economic viability are destroyed what is worth sending to this area? If you are unable to reach the natural resource that made the area rich, why bother going there? This does not mean the area is completely de-populated. The Bedouin are thriving in there nomadic culture, and powerful military and religious leaders have survived in small compounds and cities dotted across the region.

     

    And yet the talk of the "sheet of glass" persists. Could this be the result of Corporate disinformation by companies like Petrochem, SovOil, and Biotechnica trying to discourage people from exploring the area and discovering that they are actually still getting the resources? Maybe the oil fields that survived have been split between Petrochem and SovOil by agreement, and the fertile areas of the Euphrates given over to Biotechnica. Low-level Corp espionage and warfare takes place, but they refrain from anything too out of control for fear of involving outside nations who will want a piece.

     

    Just how I've always pictured it, and played it in my campaigns.

  22. A key building in the sector would have to be the bath house. These are very popular in eastern european cultures. In game terms it is a fantastic place for both sides of the street to meet and discuss important issues. It is neutral territory as neither side wants to see the place despoiled, shut down, or destroyed. It can be as chauvanistic or co-ed as the GM desires, and provides a low weapon environment where characters have to use wit and guile. Perfect place to meet your party fixer, or for your fixer pc to base himself out of.

  23. Greetings and salutations! I have recently returned to the dark streets of the CP genre after almost 15 years away from the scene. I must say that without the information here and on DataFortress I would not be as happy with my campaign as I am. Thanks to all of you for keeping this game alive.

     

    TG

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