Ocelot

I'm sure most of you are familiar with Jack Chick and his tract, Dark Dungeons.  It's more or less old news, but it's still interesting to read the disinformation and flat-out lies that these people tell about gaming.

Anyway, there's a guy named Bill Schnoebelen who is a pretty interesting fellow (that's putting it mildly) who has some of his opinions on D&D posted on Jack Chick's web site.  He has his own site here, and he's got some messed-up viewpoints on a lot of things.

His article on the Chick site is here: Straight Talk on Dungeons and Dragons

This leaves absolutely no question (in my mind) as to how much on the fringe these lunatics actually are.  I have Christian friends who tell me that these are the types that give Christians a bad name.

Anyway...I figured some of you might enjoy reading this stuff.

I went on a binge once, finding all the anti-RPG sites I could and reading them at length.  I never wrote in to them, but it's not as if the desire wasn't there.

The truth is, you can say anything to these people, using any sort of logical reasoning or truth, and they won't get it.  They don't care.  In some cases, they'll pick apart your email word by word, letting you prove their case for them, and then post it on their web site as a testimonial of sorts.

A large number of people have heard the urban myths about role-playing being Satanic, but it's not as large a majority that actually believes it.  Most people just think we're geeks.

Gary

Oh, hell yeah.  Easy.  Especially in a world where you might not mean very much to whatever country you're a citizen of.  I mean, distopian society doesn't give a rat's ass about you, but I'm sure you'd like to think that Saburo Arasaka might (especially if you're a productive employee).

As for my characters, it depends.  I've played a corporate solo who didn't much care for his employer(s); it was either "just a job," or they had something on him which forced him to do their dirty work.  Nothing inspires loyalty like a little well-placed blackmail or a cortex bomb.

I've run games with corporate-type NPCs, and their loyalty depended on a lot of things.  Their corporation's health benefits, for one.  For two, whether or not they had some kind of legal immunity based on their corporate status.  The laws that apply to the beavs and street trash don't necessarily apply to corporations or their employees.

Of course, from the standpoint of a potential scenario for a law-enforcement game, a corporate extradition-gone-awry would make for a couple of intense sessions.

Gary

I always got the impression that SR was geared more towards the younger gamers (and as much was said to me by an RTG staffer at a sci/fi convention in San Diego around the time that Rockerboy was released).  I won't say it couldn't be darker, depending on the GM running the game, but SR's published word certainly didn't have the same sort of vibe that Cyberpunk's did.

Of course, I'm biased.

Stuffer Shack?  Isn't that where they keep the meat puppets?

As for "chummer" versus "chombatta," well, I never had much trouble with "chombatta."  I suppose it's silly when you think about it.  Still, "chummer" brings to mind someone who ladles fermented fish guts overboard in order to attract sharks.  I suppose it also fits with the bill for a wanker, too, though I never considered that until now.  Bravo.

Gary

I'll admit, SR did have some good source material to draw from, once you removed the fantasy elements.  For their time, the Rigger Black Book and the Street Samurai Catalog (?) weren't bad, and were easily ported over into a more playable system.  Granted, Cyberpunk didn't exactly need more guns, but more vehicles (with illustrations, no less) were always welcome.  Mockery had a conversion file for the original Rigger's Black Book on her site many, many years ago, until FASA sent a polite letter asking her to take it down.

I am familiar with the Mechwarrior system.  I can't say the concept was terrible, but the execution left something to be desired.

Shadowrun is a very twinkable system, simply because it combines so many disparate elements.  Between the matrix (or grid or whatever they called it), magic, fantasy races, cyberware, physical adepts, and man-portable miniguns & autocannons, there's a lot of systems to incorporate and abuse.  This isn't to say it's the only system that sees regular abuse (in fact, I've seen some CP2020 characters at local conventions that made me want to check myself in for psychological counseling), but it certainly stands out in my mind as one of the prodigal systems (along with GURPS, Hero, and d20).

And just as a side note, I really hated the Shadowrun slang.  Can't exactly say why, but words like "chummer" and "drek" always seemed very juvenile.

Gary

I played SR with my AD&D group after the first edition came out.  I was a Cyberpunk 2013 GM and player at the time, so I had a somewhat unique perception of the whole thing, while they'd all come straight from Dungeons & Dragons.  They didn't have much interest in Cyberpunk.  As far as they were concerned, SR had everything that CP2013 had, as well as fantasy elements and a "fleshed-out" world history.  So why play Cyberpunk when Shadowrun was so much better?

I have to say that I had fun playing the game, though I was always a die-hard CP2013 (and, later, 2020) fan.  I could never abide the SR system; when compared to the relative simplicity of Interlock, it seemed like a big jumble of numbers, threshold ratings, drain codes, etc.  Some of the concepts were interesting, but tossing big handfuls of six-sided dice around wasn't my thing.

To each his own, I suppose.

Gary

Yeah, that's happened to me, too.

I've had people write asking how they can get some of the drugs I've made, where they can purchase incendiary paintballs, and if they can get a few samples of the paintball guns I "manufacture."  One guy wrote to tell me about his psychological problems, and asked which of my drugs would be best to help him cope with them.

Mockery (my wife) also had a couple emails from a Brazilian company in regards to some of the underwater gear she'd written up for her page.

I've got a few of these emails saved, but a lot of them (the older ones from the early '90's) are gone, gone, gone.

Gary

Might be a little late, but I did a write-up on zombies a looooong time ago that can be found here.  It's definitely some of my older work, but it may give some ideas.

Gary

No, it doesn't specifically require any more guns.  By the same token, more guns won't ruin the environment, either.  That's similar to asking, "Does the world need any more designer jean styles?"  Of course not, but they make some people happy, so why mess with a good thing?

I don't mind new weapons for my Cyberpunk game, so long as they are balanced.  I don't play the game for the sole purpose of resolving firefights, but I do realize that some of my players enjoy a good scuffle.

There are two extremes that come to mind.  There is the generic "9mm pistol" or ".45 automatic" paradigm, and there is the "M1911A1 automatic with custom grips, laser sight, recoil comp, loaded with hollowpoints" paradigm.  One of these extremes centers more on the gun as a part of the game world, while in the other the gun is the game world.

There is a happy medium, and Samedi has a point.  These weapons aren't much different than the other weapons, but past a certain point that's going to always be the case.  He's adding some new style to the game.  I can't really see a problem with that.

I've GMed for a group that included three women (out of six total players, for a 50% ratio).  More often than not, there are at least 2 women in any of my games.

In my experience, it's more of a myth that women are better role-players than men.  They have a few different psychological buttons, sure, but each one is an individual with different needs and their own gaming style.  To make blanket statements and give general advice about "women" role-players is like giving similar advice about white players, or black players, or Catholic players.  It doesn't really fly, in my opinion.

Since there are typically more men in games than women, it may seem a bit intimidating.  My best advice is to treat them just like you would any other player.  Find out where their interests lie, and don't be afraid to talk to them about where they see their characters going.  Some of the most detail-oriented players I've had have been women, though I can't say whether or not that's normal.  I can tell you that being treated differently (and especially condescendingly) by a GM on the basis of her gender will irritate just about any female player.

I ran an "Aliens" game for a few of my old Cyberpunk friends at a convention earlier this year, and my wife was the only woman in the group (out of eight players).  One of the players, who typically makes sexually-explicit remarks about the girls he sees, continued to do so in the presence of my wife.  It didn't seem to bother him, but everyone else seemed kind of embarassed by it (even though, in my experience, they would have probably joined in, had she not been there).  To everyone but that player, my wife being there was a catalyst for a more subdued atmosphere with a less "sexually-sophomoric" feel.  At least, that's the impression I got.

Not sure this will help, since I haven't said much of anything...  

Gary

I am, at the least, entertained.  And all it costs me is a monthly fee to my ISP.  How sweet is that?  Give me a bowl of popcorn and an IV caffiene drip and I'm set.

G

P&S is all about being a cop.  It's specific to American cops in 2020, but any of this can be adapted to other countries depending on your tastes.  Procedures are detailed, different departments are explained, and there's a nice section of cop-specific equipment and gear.  There are sections on the "bad guys" that police might run into: organized crime (the mafia, the triads, the yakuza, etc), corporations, and gangs.  The book also lists many major and minor crimes, as well as standard (and random) punishments for them.  Past that, there's a section of game ideas for anyone interested in running a police game.  The book includes some forms that you can photocopy, such as autopsey reports and personnel files.

Wildside isn't exactly the opposite of Protect & Serve.  It's more of a support book for Fixers.  The first chapter explains what Fixers are, how Streetdeal works, and gives several different role variations for the Fixer (Black Marketeer, Pusher, Bookie, etc.).  The second chapter talks all about character creation for Fixers, how to form businesses, and how to tailor your campaign for a Fixer character.  The third chapter is all about rules, such as cracking other people's credit chips, personal interaction rules and difficulties (one of the most useful charts in the book), and there's a small section on SINs.  The fourth chapter covers the world of the street, gives you a sample "strip," and details some new crimes (with their priority ratings and sentences) for Protect & Serve.  There is some interesting material on GMing here, and the book touches on drugs a little bit.  The last chapter gives some scant information on alternate religions, politics, suggested movies and books, and some new street slang.

Hope that helps...

Gary

Wildside

It's alright, but probably not my favorite supplement.  It relies to closely on CP2020's class-based Roles, though it does contain some interesting tidbits here and there.

Listen Up You Primitive Screwheads

This is a very nice book to have, and it used to be hard to get (though I hear tell there's been a re-print).  I happen to love books that cover the "art" of GMing, so I find it a good read.  I can understand why some people might not like it, though.  In my opinion, you should pick this one up if you don't have it already.

Protect & Serve

While the book has some flaws, it's pretty good if you ever intend to run any law enforcement-based games.  P&S is one of those supplements that inspired me to run three separate, highly-successful CP2020 campaigns.

Eurosource (Original)

This is one I would suggest that you skip.  It's not particularly useful IMO, and it's not particularly interesting, either.

Deep Space

I like this book, though I'm not sure why.  It's worth having if you ever plan to run a game set in orbit (or beyond).  It's got a lot of neat things between its covers.

Max Metal

Max Metal was an attempt to take two different systems (one for vehicles, one for powered armor) and unsuccessfully squash them together.  I'm not a big fan of overly complicated mecha systems.

Firestorm: Shockwave

Lots of roles, lots of combat-oriented gear, and lots of high-powered NPCs.  I'd take "Deep Space" or "Screwheads" over this one.

When Gravity Fails

This is one of the better supplements, in my opinion.  If you ever want to run a game based on Effinger's books, you'll probably want it.  Even if you don't, it's got a lot of good (simple) information on Islam, as well as some interesting tech.  Also has rules on sex changes (hubba hubba).

Just my 2 eurobucks...

Gary

I think L5R was originally a CCG, which spawned an RPG, which in turn spawned a tabletop miniatures game.

Gary

Dear Nina,

I took your advice, and went to chop up my ex-slut and the wilson she left me for.  Turns out he's some kinda fed, and the next thing I know I'm in a locked-down cell block waiting for some cop in five layers of kevlar to call my docket number.  I know you're not miss manners, but I got into an argument with another con about silverware, and maybe you can help.

Is it better to make a shank out of a soup spoon, or a salad fork?

(Used to be) Armed with an Icepick

Dear Nina,

My input left me for some scrawny wilson with a convertible and one of the new Mr. Studds.  I'm really broken up.  I don't know how I'm going to live without her, but I suppose I'll make it.

Anyway, my question is: should I kill them both, or just the cheating bitch?

Signed,

Armed with an Icepick

Let's not forget a pacifier that also doubles as a drug delivery system...

Gary

Interesting, considering that Black Box Cyberpunk came first.

I got into Cyberpunk early on, picked up the first edition at a local comic shop.  We played the hell out of that game, maybe two games a week.  I saw the first edition of Shadowrun at a game store in the mall one day and I picked it up because it looked neat.  When I'd finished reading it, I felt like it was just a CP rip-off with a few doo-dads glued on, and (to me at that age) the rules were incomprehensible.

One thing that FASA always did with their settings was work in an intricately detailed back-story.  SR had a ready-made world presented in the core book, as well as a highly-popular fantasy element.  One of the big reasons that my friends seemed to like it was because of this level of detail.  To them, Cyberpunk came in three skinny black paperback books, while Shadowrun was a large, blue hard-cover with lots of art, color plates, etc.

They saw Cyberpunk's (initial) lack of detail as a detriment to the game as a whole.  To my mind, Cyberpunk was a framework for my own setting.  I didn't have to run my game to someone else's music.  It was unique to me, whereas they were running their game in the same Seattle as every other SR group.

I suppose I'm glad they never wanted to play Cyberpunk.  Given their predisposition to dislike it, I'm not sure they would have enjoyed it at all.  That would've only led to a reinforced viewpoint that CP was an inferior system.

Gary

Even when CP2020 was seeing a regular release schedule, Shadowrun was still more popular overall.  Something about the SR setting appeals to a wider audience.  It's a generic fantasy setting with a technological/dark future twist, and (in my opinion) has more initial appeal for a younger audience.  Cyberpunk always seemed more for mature gamers.

I've played Shadowrun, and I'm almost ashamed to admit that I did have fun.  Still, the group I was playing with, upon hearing that I liked Cyberpunk, dismissed it completely.  They couldn't understand why anyone would like boring old Cyberpunk, when SR had elves, magic, troggy troggy troggy trolls, and dragons.  Go figure.

Shadowrun is a good place to go for ideas.  I can't completely dismiss it as a "cheap CP2020 knock-off," because some interesting stuff has come out of it.

One of the things I always hated about SR was the slang.  Appearantly, no one curses in SR.  "Get outta my drekkin' face, ya slaggin' frag-bait."  And the term "chummer" just rubbed me the wrong way.  

Gary

Pasted in from the "Shadowrun" discussion...

That's a lot of products.  If anything, d20 has been a wonderful vehicle for struggling game designers.  I don't think the system is strong enough to support everything.  Each new game introduces its own modifications, exceptions, and tweaks.

That about hits the nail on the head for me, though I have to gripe about Feats if given the opportunity.  So here: "gripe, gripe, gripe; feats, feats, feats."

I agree, to a certain extent.  Star Wars d20 did a pretty good job of representing hit points, and uses two different totals: Vitality Points, which represent near-misses, minor injuries, and the ability to avoid damage; and Wound Points, which actually represent serious damage and wounds.  Some types of damage (and critical hits) are applied directly to wounds, making the system a little more deadly than your standard D&D game.  Importantly, armor in SWd20 no longer adds to Armor Class, but instead absorbs damage.

When you hate something a lot, it's sometimes tough to figure out why.

I think this argument is baseless, as well.  Sure, we've had a handful of new, never-before players added to the pool of Fantasy RPG gamers since the introduction of D&D 3rd edition.  As far as I can tell, most of the sales are going to veteran players.  The products that WOTC releases are flashy, but gamers will continue to come into the fold the old fashioned way.  I doubt d20 will revitalize the hobby.  If anything, we're going to reach some sort of overload (as with Magic: The Gathering) and things will return to a somewhat normal state (whatever that means).

Smashing idea.

Gary

What it means is...

"d20" is the name of the game system (not just the dice it uses) that has been developed for D&D 3rd edition from the ashes of AD&D 2nd edition.  When someone says that they hate d20, they don't mean that they hate the dice, or any game that uses a twenty-sided die.  Just that they hate the "d20" role-playing system.

Since WOTC released the d20 system, they have allowed non-Wizards of the Coast companies to release supplements using their d20 system, so long as those companies adhere to certain rules and guidelines.  Right now, as I live and breathe, the market is practically flooded with any number of d20 products.  Not all of them are worth the paper they are printed on.  Some are quite good.  Others are a cheap attempt to make money.

Many systems use a twenty-sided die, but are not "d20" games: Kult is one, as Suriel mentioned (and a damn fine, moody game it is, too).  Twilight: 2000, in its last incarnation, used twenty-siders.

I am running a game of Star Wars using the d20 system, and it's more of an experiment than anything.  I much prefer West End Games' "D6" system, which was used in the original "Star Wars" RPG.  In fact, I've got an entire web site dedicated to converting the d20 material to D6 statistics.

While the d20 rules work (I actually like the system mechanics), I can't abide feats or prestige classes.  At my core, I don't like class- or level-based systems.  They are too restrictive to me.  Advancement is too slow, and characters are too rigidly defined.  Feats complicate and slow down play, and make character generation a twink's wet dream.

Mephostophilis, I feel your pain.  I am a long-time fan of Cthulhu and the BRP (Basic Role-Playing) system.  I enjoy "Stormbringer" as well.  Be comforted that Chaosium plans to re-print each and every d20 supplement that they produce with the BRP rules.  At least, that's what they say.

As for hating systems, it's true that they are tools to motivate role-play.  I've had plenty of fun playing any number of really crappy game systems.  It really depends on the story, the players, and the game master.  I do, however, have preferences.  I don't like levels or classes, as I have mentioned.  I like systems where I can see my character advance and change from game to game, which isn't something you can take for granted in a level-based system.  This does not mean I won't play in a game that uses a certain system, but I won't likely run a game that uses that system.

Gary

Similar to Malek's idea...

Allow players to add a number of points to the difficulty number.  If they hit, they add the number of extra difficulty points to the damage roll.  This makes it less random and allows for more misses if players get cocky.

Either that, or just allow players to make called shots at unarmored locations, or locations that would logically be less armored than the main body.  Sure, Metalgear gives an all-over SP of 25, but what about the visor?  The joints?

Gary

Go to any comic, anime, science fiction, or gaming convention.  You will see plenty of girls dressed up like Sailor Moon; plenty of guys in Han Solo costumes; and the year I went to GenCon, there were bloody Klingons everywhere.

Now, flash forward to a dark future where individuality cannot be taken for granted, and reconstructive surgery is done at clinics down at the mallplex.

I don't see anything particularly funny about posergangs.  Sure, there's the silly angle (ie, "The Gilligans"), but to me that is the exception as opposed to the rule.  I won't say I have posergangs on every street corner, but I'm not going to throw the idea out completely.  In moderation, posergangs needn't be blatantly stupid.

Gary

A cyborg stomps me

His heart, like winter, frozen

Oh, dear lord, why me?

(I never said I was a poet.)

Do you mean genetic implants, as in making a particular modification inherent in the character's DNA?  I can't think of any CP2020 material that has covered this sort of ground, though there might be something unofficial out there that the folks around here could steer you towards.

In the "Blue Planet" RPG, many of the modifications are biological in nature (as opposed to cybernetic or mechanical, though there are a few of those).  Some of these biomods can (and do) alter the character's genetic code, and are passed on to your offspring.

Sorry, can't help ya, though that should be easy enough to do with access to the CP2020 book and a scanner.

Gary