gomiville

Andwat Sadat Signed a peace treaty with israel amidst public oppisition. So did Jordan . There were no Iran Esque anti-goverment movements.

Ummmm... Sadat signed a treaty, yes. However, what you're proposing is a little different. If there was evidence of mass Palestinian sterilization by the Mossad, there'd be hell to pay. Distinct, personal, this-belt-goes-boom hell.

Also, your timeline hinges on some very unlikely events, mainly the massive Jewish deportations from as many countries as you could find, it seems. Frankly, this is highly, highly unlikely in nearly all circumstances. I'd like to point out that Ethopian Jews are particularly unlikely to be deported. You do realize that Ethiopia has had a Jewish population longer than any country (currently in existence) in the world, yes? It'd be like Britain suddenly deporting everyone of Norman descent.

I also think you're confusing Jews with Israelis. Not a good mistake to make. It would be very unlikely for world leaders in your future to make the same mistake, poorly written or no.

And while I understand your whole gung-ho socialism (understand, not agree with), I think you're underestimating the effect of ideologies other than economics. Economics is a big force, but hardly the only force acting on human history (regardless of what Mr. Marx and Mr. Engels say).

Don't have much in the way of ideas right now, but I'm interested in what develops for Podlaysyan Voivodship. My paternal grandfather was Lithuanian, and our name (now shortened) has Polish roots. While we know very little of my grandfather (my grandparents were divorced when my father was young and he had no contact with my grandfather after that), I'm guessing this is a likely location for my ancestral roots. So I'm curious.

Don't worry, Mikael, others are reading too. I've been reading this topic from the beginning, and find Poland.2020 very interesting.

I've always liked the "exotic global" concept of cyberpunk, with characters jetsetting from Cairo to Warsaw to Orbit to Backwoods, USA. Allows all kinds of flavor and background to weave in around the story. It requires a working and consistent concept for everywhere though. This thread has definitely provided that for Eastern Europe.

I'd agree about the probable future of cyberpunk too. In my gameworld, the EU (or EEC, whatever) is one of the major world powers (next to an ascendent China, a faltering US and a kleptocratic Russia). However, the nations within the EU aren't that powerful on their own, and aren't all equal (most power is based in the classic Western Europe, like Germany). But collectively, they have one of the strongest voices in world affairs. If only they could stop bickering amongst themselves.

I tend to stick with 2020, for two reasons.

1) I tend to go with a slightly lower tech version of CP2020. Fewer cybernetics, more "conventional" hacking, etc. Also, the social aspect of my gameworld isn't as different from today. As powerful as corporations get, they don't have actual corporate armies, for example. The governments are still the big boys on the block, though largely funded (i.e. bribed) by corporations.

2) I'm stubborn and don't feel like messing with the original date. I do mess with the timeline (substituting Iraq for SouthAm, for example), but I keep the end date out of some misguided loyalty to the concept or something.

Good point about the subjective... however, you just agreed with us. Cyberpunk, as a postmodern style, is inherently undefinable, thus relegated to the subjective appreciation of the reader. If you and I can't agree on the "characteristics" of cyberpunk, for example, then we'd view different works as cyberpunk or not. Therefore, cyberpunk is in the eye of the beholder.

However, I don't seriously think cyberpunk is entirely undefinable. Rather it exists within a nebulous cloud of characteristics and style. Book A has traits 1, 2, 3 and 4. Book B has traits 3, 4, 5 and 6. Book C has traits 5, 6, 7 and 8. All are cyberpunk, even though book A and book C have no traits in common. But A and C both feel cyberpunk. Meanwhile, book D has traits 2, 5, 7 and 8, and isn't cyberpunk at all.

If you like the postmodern groove of Zeitgeist, you'd probably like some of Rudy Rucker's or Pat Cadigan's stuff. You might also like Flesh Guitar by Geoff Nicholson, funky and strange, if a little lacking in cohesive narrative.

(Edited to remove superfluous quoting of Cyberfish's post)

"Petra" has the intellectual hero, though most other cyberpunk trappings are largely missing. It's a beautiful story though and fits perfectly with the style of writing most '80's cyberpunk authors were using.

I think the best definition of cyberpunk may be like art: You know it when you see it.

Admittedly, it's been awhile since I read Zeitgeist, but I think I remember enough to chime in here.

First, I would argue cyberpunk doesn't require cyberspace. We could have a very very long thread about what is cyberpunk (and probably will), but I tend to have a slightly wider view. It's hard to define it properly here, but I don't think cyberpunk requires cyberspace, cybernetics or even a futuristic setting. It requires, among other things, technology, a trickster/intellectual hero (hence hackers) and a gritty view of reality. As such it is a response to older styles of science fiction, with dashing physical heros (Flash Gordon is a stereotypical example) or slick, clean visions of reality (Star Trek is an example, since they've eradicated poverty, war and disease on Earth). Cyberpunk is sometimes also defined as postmodern science fiction, a definition I find accurate but too broad.

As for Zeitgeist, I'm not exactly sure how'd I'd classify it. It's not the cyberpunk of Neuromancer or Snow Crash, but it has many of the same traits. The hero, one Sterling has used before and one of my favorites, is a trickster hero, using his brains over his brawn. The world of the book is realistic and near-future. The style is decidedly postmodern, loaded with pop culture reference and self-referential exploration.

However, the book doesn't have the feel of capital-C cyberpunk (like Neuromancer, etc). For one, it's not really science fiction, in a lot of ways. But, since Sterling wrote it, and it's not easily defined, it tends to be lumped in with his more obviously cyberpunk writing. Gibson's Pattern Recognition is much the same, lumped with his cyberpunk works for lack of a better place. Maybe it's better to call both of these books "cyberpunk informed mysteries" or something, but that's awfully clunky.

Overall, I'd say it's a good book and very interesting, regardless of how it's classified. Though, like a lot of Sterling's later stuff, it's a little self-conscious, but I wouldn't hold that against it.

I see. Makes more sense than I first thought, I guess.

So... the penalty to hit a called shot is essentially equal to the random chance to hit the area anyway? I'm guessing I'm not understanding what you're saying, but this seems to make called shots useless. Clarify?

I know the V-22 has problems and the Harrier has a more effective (though still relatively unsafe and inefficient) history, but the AVs smack too much of "flying cars" a la Jetsons.

A question for Grim: You outlaw ospreys in your games. Why? Do you allow AVs?

I ask because I whole heartedly allow ospreys (while effectively outlawing AVs). Provided they work (I know the V-22 has had problems with basic flight here and there), I think ospreys are perfect near future aircraft. I see them as being very popular in certain areas, especially: the military, bush pilots and commuter airlines.

The military would love something with the VTOL capabilities of a helicopter and the horizontal flight of an airplane. Bush pilots would view it as the ultimate STOL plane (though there are repair issues with the more complex mechanism). And commuter airlines would be able to run rooftop-to-rooftop flights between cities, delivering you to the center of a city, instead of an airport on the fringe.

I put limits on them in the game (they're not jets, they are a little more cranky maintenance-wise, etc), but otherwise allow them.

Just curious why you disallow them.

The C-2A looks pretty impressive. I wonder if it qualifies as STOL, with its carrier capability. The reason I ask is, especially with its onboard APU (Auxiliary Power Supply, ie basically a generator for external power), the C-2A would be a pretty cool bushplane for some uses, provided you beef up its landing gear.

I've edited the Be-12 to reflect 3000kg of cargo.

Didn't even notice the listing of armament weight on that page. Guess I read carefully, huh?

Actually, the 11 ton cargo for the Be-12 is from the info I found on those sites (and others I looked up). Most seem to say that maximum payload is 10,000kg, or about 11 tons. In some cases, this seems to include fuel weight, but in others it all seems to be purely cargo weight. If anyone has a more correct value, I'll gladly change it above.

I might have screwed up the A-40's cargo and size, actually. It should weigh about 94 tons, not 86 (misread tonnes for tons, metric conversion error). The bomb load is 6500kg, but maximum cargo appears to be more, closer to 20,000kg or 22 tons.

Want me to recalculate the A-40?

And here's the Be-12. Again, cost is by Max.Met rules and therefore up in the air. Also, the Be-12P and Be-12PT are purely speculative, since I found no mention of them except that a cargo version was created once.

--

Beriev Be-12 Tchaika/'Mail' (ASW)

Top Speed: 380 mph

Acc/Dec: 10/25

Crew: 5 (pilot, copilot, navigator, radar operator, MAD operator)

Passengers: None

Range: 2500 miles with max payload, 4700 miles with max fuel, 3600 miles average

Cargo: 3.3 tons (0.5)

Maneuver: -3

SDP: 136 (Body 7)

SP: 14 (Armor 1)

Type: Heavy Plane

Mass: 34 tons max takeoff weight

Cost: 850k eb (816,700eb base cost)

Equipment: Amphibious operation, crash harnesses, environmental control, fire extinguisher, head (toilet, small sink, etc), military radio, auto-pilot with navsystem, Magnetic Anomoly Detector (MAD), military radar (detector, terrain following, look-down), chaff and flare launchers.

Weapons: Internal bay can hold 15 spaces of torpedoes, depth charges and mines, plus one 20-space hardpoint and one 10-space hardpoint under each wing. Weapon cost not included above.

Available versions include (All stats the same, except where noted):

Be-12PS (SAR): Crew: 6 (pilot, copilot, navigator, radar operator, 2x medics); Passengers: 10 (patients); Cargo: 6.5 spaces (usually holds life-raft, etc); Equipment: 500km civilian radio, searchlight, civilian radar (terrain following, look-down), infrared sensors, medical equipment, no chaff/flare; Weapons: None; Cost: 1 Meb.

Be-12P (Airline): Crew: 4 (pilot, copilot, navigator, attendant); Passengers: 19; Cargo: 1.5 spaces; Equipment: 500km civilian radio, civilian radar (terrain following), no chaff/flare; Weapons: None; Cost: 800k eb.

Be-12PT (Airline/Cargo Combo): Crew 4 (pilot, copilot, navigator, attendant); Passengers: 10; Cargo: 10.5 spaces; Equipment: 500km civilian radio, civilian radar (terrain following), no chaff/flare; Weapons: None; Cost: 800k eb.

That's a good point about the crew. The third link wilphe provided listed crew complements for the A-40 and Be-42, so I kept them for the Be-40P/PT (which the site mentioned, but didn't really detail). I might take away the engineer and radio operator for the Be-40P/PT, but I'd leave the navigator. Don't most airliners have three flight crew?

I'd actually keep the flight engineer for these aircraft in 2020, if only because these things would be old and maybe a little cranky. And even if the crew is reduced, there's still a seat with crash harness for the missing person.

Here's the A-40. The cost is based on Max.Met rules, and therefore probably has nothing to do with real life. Plus, any of these in 2020 would be used and/or surplus anyway. All other stats are as accurate to real life as possible.

I'll try to stat the Be-12 later today.

--

Beriev A-40 Albatross/'Mermaid' (ASW)

Top Speed: 480 mph

Acc/Dec: 20/25

Crew: 5 (pilot, co-pilot, engineer, navigator/observer, radio operator)

Passengers: 3 (observers)

Range: 2500 miles with max payload, 3500 miles with max fuel, 3000 miles average

Cargo: 7 tons (14)

Maneuver: -4

SDP: 215 (Body 11)

SP: 20 (Armor 1)

Type: Large Jet

Mass: 86 tons max takeoff weight

Cost: 5.25 Meb (5,207,250eb base cost)

Equipment: Amphibious operation, fire extinguisher, environmental control, crash control harnesses, head (toilet, small sink, etc), military radio, auto-pilot with navsystem, military radar (detector, terrain following, look-down), chaff and flare launchers.

Weapons: Internal bay can hold 100 spaces of torpedoes, depth charges and mines. Weapon cost not included above.

Available versions include (All stats the same, except where noted):

Be-42 (SAR): Crew: 8 (normal + 3 medics); Passengers: 54 (patients); Cargo: 55 spaces (usually holds life-rafts, rescue boat, etc); Equipment: 500km civilian radio, searchlight, infrared sensors, civilian radar (terrain following, look-down), medical gear, no chaff/flare; Weapons: None; Cost: 5.45 Meb.

Be-40P (Airline): Crew: 8 (normal + 3 attendents); Passengers: 105; Cargo: 11 spaces; Equipment: 500km civilian radio, civilian radar (terrain following), no chaff/flare; Weapons: None.

Be-40PT (Airline/Cargo Combo): Crew: 6 (normal + 1 attendent); Passengers: 52; Cargo 66 spaces; Equipment: 500km civilian radio, civilian radar (terrain following), no chaff/flare; Weapons: None.

Slightly off-topic, but...

Winter Jewel: This forum is about guns in the game, though occasionally real life weapon discussion creeps in.

Rockwolf: How far have you gotten? I'm willing to contribute some work to the project, since I'm also interested in having a copy of the finished product. Let me know if you want a hand.

Just watched it through NetFlix.

Not bad. Not great. Decent fun. Period.

One of those movies that really aren't that great (writing, acting, etc), but are fun to watch (special effects, guns/martial arts, visual atmosphere, etc).

I personally don't use a revolutionary style of cyberpunk in my world. I don't think revolution has anything to do with cyberpunk.

Cyberpunk, as a literary style, was revolutionary, yes. But they weren't writing about revolutions, by and large. It was about realism, details and deconstructionism. They were "rebelling" against a style of sci-fi that was all gleaming space ships and political overtones.

Cyberpunk is grit and moral ambivalence, like today with the detail turned way up. Not black-and-white revolutions of good guy vs. bad guy, even if the bad guy is the society all around. Cyberpunk is about making one's way in a world where information is power and power corrupts. Cyberpunks are just going from day to day, taking care of survival and looking for that big score that'll set them up for life. If they can help the world along the way, that's great. However an accelerated society and exaggerated have & have nots means that if you stop, you sink. And if you sink, you die.

Idealism is a luxury, and power just smells too good.

That's my opinion, of course, take it or leave it as you will. I don't claim it's right.