Pockets

<cut>

 

My point is basically this, there is room in this world for CP2020, regardless of how dated it may seem. Call of Cthulu players don't seem to mind playing their games in the the lat 1800's, why can't CP players play in the near future?

 

Ideally, it would be nice to see both games thrive and continue to be supported. There are some people out there who like V3, and that's cool, it's not my cup of tea but that doesn't make it a bad thing. I'd just like to see some more great art and great ideas for CP2020 as well, since it still seems to have a large fanbase out there.

 

CP2020 the setting: Quite useabel and solid setting/background/environment. Who cares for minor details

 

CP2020 the system: Old, cluncky, well past it's prime even with triple layers of make up (MaxMetal, Screwhead)

 

The universe has survived the time, the game system has not.

If you only skimmed through V3 you are missing a lot of the potentials.

 

a) Strip the universe, keep the rules

 

The Fuzion rules engine is an updated and modernised version of CP's Interlock killing many of CP's problems like "Special Abilities". The Version in CP3 is tailored for Cyberpunk so it differs from the free version on the Net (available in Print from RTal) quite a bit.

 

Using the rules engine with the CP background was how I started my transfer from 2020

 

Mine the Book

 

While some of the concepts in the book are hard to stomach (Whaleboys, Desnai, Crash/Book-eating virus) most are useabel. And the same is true for quite a few concepts like the self-growing city, the scattering of the net etc. We had nanotech in DeepSpace (one of the Mars bases) and quite a few of the new cyber gears make a lot of sense (i,e the Nomad stuff)

 

 

v3 is like new coke only if new coke has a huge shit in it.

 

of course that is just my opinion, to each his own.

 

It's not an option, it's a rant. But there are some who will stick with "traditons" even if that way is totally outdated.

 

As you say to each his own and for me, I can really do without a class-based, inconsitent and jury-rigged steamengine of a system like CP 2020/Interlock

Let's face it:

 

There's a number of us here (and suposedly not only here) who do like the taste of the old thing.

And we don't like the taste of the new thing.

 

Ok.

 

So, what we want is not to stop, outlaw and burn at the stake anyone who does like the New Coke. Nor anything like that.

We want our good old Coke Classic. We want it back. That's all.

 

There's no place for any quarelling there: I don't like the new Coke, I don't drink it. I don't buy it. Discussing it's (rumored) superiority over the New Coke is pointless. It's like discussing the superiority of a Mars chocolate bar over a Snickers (the fact I don't like peanuts in my chocolate bars doesn't make anyone who does worse!).

 

No. We have to convince The Company to resume production of our old favourite Coke Classic. Should the production of the New Coke stop or continue, is beyond the scope of our interests.

We don't drink it anyway.

 

On the other hand I stopped using the CP2020 rules set about an hour after I got the V3 paper version and will never turn back to it. Took a bit longer to get to the background but by now I used that too.

 

So me and my group would prefer it the other way round, good by 2020 and all the power to V3.

 

Your Furlongs per Haversack may vary.

Game copying reality: I am a

 

QUOTE (senior officer Mikael van Atta @ Apr 8 2004, 07:19 PM)

Excuse me, pockets, but as we're trying to keep pace with the "official" CP 2020 Timeline, I suppose there would be not much power left in the US in 2010 to mount a coalition to enter the Germany with military force (not to say doing it on theimeslf)... And I wouldn't say such coalition could be formed by Eastern Europeans themselves. Brits should be just in the middle of their MLA rule, so rather not capable of performing any action on the continent. The Poles (with their permanent economical crisis) neither should. I cannot see my country mustering enough military strenght so be significant in such situation, and entering Germany would cause too much animosity. And what the hell Thetchians are doing there? Of course, it can be still your licentia poetica and I do accept it, but well, I think we should stay coherent in our visions of future...

Germany 2020 - Bleak version

 

Due to our well balanced press (You have the choice between "Bild" [think Völkischer Beobachter/Prawda] and "Faz" [Think Der Stürmer/Iswestia]) it is quite likely that the "industrial-influenced" Christian Democrats and the "business oriented" Free Democrats will win the 2006 election. Hopefully I have left the state by then...

 

Germany is a nightmare mixture between a police state and a Manchaster-Style "free capitalism". The election system has transformed into a british style majority based system and the states have been reduced to voting units for the second chamber (Bundesrat) with 1/6 having elections every year. Bundestag-periods have been lengthened to 6 years to "reduce the pressure of campaigning". The voting system is fully computerized since 2007 despite massiv protests from certain "left wing anti-technologie groups".

 

Germany has long since joined nations like the US in rejecting the Kyoto protocoll and revoking a number of environmental safety acts and all laws to aid the deployment of regenerative energies. At the same time a number of prominent "greenies" where arrested for links with left wing terrorist groups.

 

At about the same time a "Comitte for Optimisation of Industrial Growth" under FDP chief Westerwelle drafted laws to disable the long standing balance between trade unions and industrial leaders. CDU/FDP dominance of the Bundesrat allowed those laws to be passed in 2007, practically gutting any union activity and worker participation.

 

A "Commity for State Security and Terror defence" under Minister Beckstein (CDU) drafted a number of laws to "ensure the safety of german citizens" and "allow for quick deportation of foreign criminals". Initially opposition quickly gave up in the wake of a massiv series of left wing and islamic terrorism that culminated in a massiv C-Weapons (Sarin) attack on a Green Party demonstration against violence, killing 500 people including (in)famous former environmental minister Trittin and PDS leader Gysie. Laws initially consisted of:

 

Biometric data (Fingerprints, DNS-Data) in the citizen card

Enforcement of the (existing) laws to carry that card with you any time

Conzentration of asylum seekers in large camps in east germany

Quick deportation of non-german criminals

Usage of the TollCollect traffic system for traffic control/observation

 

Soon additional measures where called for and, following some spectacular successes against terror cells, passed. This included:

 

Deportation of unemployed/minor employed non-EU citizens

Increased, AI-supported video survillance of public space

RFID (Transponder) Implants for non-EU citizens

Extension of the TollCollect system to overland roads and major city streets

Permissions for internal use of the armed forces

Re-institution of the evasdropping laws cancelled early 2004 IRL

 

Currently (2022) the third stage is in the advanced planning including:

 

Automatic deportation of accused non-EU foreigners

Generall implantation of computer-readable ID chips

Prohibition to encode private EMail

Disbanding the postal service for letters

 

 

On the state level the power of the federal states as well as their number was reduced (to 12, loosing Hamburg, Bremen, Saarland and Berlin) The school system and the police where federalized. Free access to universities was cancelled and access to education beyond the 10s year (years 11/12, necessary for university access) was based upon a complex set of guidelines including "social integration) ensuring that only the wealthy and conformal get access to higher education.

 

To "increase to flagging population" chemical contraceptives[1] and people without children where taxed. At the same time the medical insurances lowered their default catalog of cures. This in turn leads to a decrease in life expectance, further increased by the raising of the pension age to 70 and stricter enforcements of the age.

 

Germany 2020 - Bright version

 

2005 - The social democratic party purges itself of the "Brionie" faction under ex-Chancellor Schroeder. Among those cashiered are all SPD members of the cabinet. Oskar Lafontaine rejoins the party and manages to win some prominent members of the PDS for the "New SPD"

 

2006 - General elections result in a CDU/FDP coalition winning with a smaller than expected margin. They immidiately start following the orders of their industrial masters and dismember the trade unions and disband worker participation laws. At the same time security laws are passed despite protests by the opposition, including interior use of the armed forces.

 

2007 - Increased oppression of the workers lead to massiv protests organised by a re-juvenated SPD and the remnants of the trade unions. The government continues the demolition of the social capitalism by reducing expected pensions and general healthcare features while increasing the prices one sided (employers side is fixed). The slogan "Beautify your city - An industrialist on every lamppost" becomes a slogan of the militant anti-government underground

 

2008 - New work laws (48h week without compensation, no worker participation) and new security laws (everything over 10 people is a riot) are drafted. Mai 1 sees massiv protests. When the government sends in the police more than half do not act and join the demonstrators. When the "Border Guards", well known for their brutality and the army units are ordered in, the situation escalates. Military units, mostly conscripts and members of the worker class, disobey orders and threaten the Border Guards (BGS). The situation escalates in Berlin and Duisburg where fire is exchanged. After an initial schock the assembled masses, each more than 300.000 strong. assaults the "Reichstag" and the government quater in Berlin as well as a number of industry headquaters in the Ruhr Valley. The civil war breaks loose

 

2008/2009 - Civil war in germany. With the army and normal police divided between neutrality, participation and (rarely) serving the government the "Border Guards", "Verfassungsschutz" and some company security forces are all that the government can rely on. Despite some successes like the elimination of SPD leaders Lafontaine and Gysie the outcome seems clear and the people are on the verge of triumph. Already the government is in exile at London and similar riots are going on in Italy (where Pres. Berlusconie ended up infront of his government seat hanging from a ladder by his legs, bled white) and France (where the sozialist government actually joins the people and nationalises all industrial assets)

 

2010 - The Yanks are comming. Performing a Merkel[2] the government enlists help from the US and their Polish/Tschechian/Britisch allies. Overwhelmed by the numbers the people fall back and a call for help goes out that is answered by a number of states including the three remaing nuclear powers. Between miltary aid and the invasion of US-friendly east european countries the crisis is solved.

 

2011 - Germany, France, Austria(Haider had an accident and shot himself in the head 6 times) and Italie form the "European Socialist Union".

 

2022 - Europe is a socialist paradiese. State controlled industries produce for the need of the people, Healthcare is all well and the nature is recovering.

 

 

Pockets

 

[1] Most common contraceptive here

[2] This is simmilar to "doing the Levinsky" but with an uglier female. Not to be confused with "doing the Stäuber" which involves insertion of the head in the anal regions of a superior.

 

<large> GERMANY 2004 </large>

 

Well, what part of germany do you want?

 

I) The government (aka Mr. Taliban, please drop a plane here)

 

Seat of government is now (sadly) Berlin was (far better) Bonn.

 

Germany is a democracy[1] with a two chamber parlament consisting of the Bundestag (directly elected by the people once every four years) and the Bundesrat (indirectly elected through the state elections) The Bundestag selects a Chancellor through simple majority. The chancellor is responsible for forming a cabinett and the general ruling of the state. The chancellor must be an elected member of the Bundestag although the cabinett members must not. Germany has a proportionall voting system that leads to a greater number of parties (currently 5) in parliament and the generall necessity for coalation governments. To prevent a Weimar style splintering, a party must get 5%[2] of the votes to enter (There are >20 parties in germany).

 

The head of state is the Bundespräsident, elected by the assembled Bundestag&Rat once every 5 years. It is basically a figurehead job that includes countersigning laws (if he refuses, the Bundestag/Rat can vote again passing the law on second try) and officially accepting the chancellor (he can't decline) He can also (upon request by the Bundestag) call for new elections if the chancellor steps down and asks for the new election[A chancellor can step down and a new one can be elected without new general elections. At least in theorie. In practice when a chancellor stepped down, there where new elections)

 

Germany is splintered in 16 states reaching from city states (Hamburg, Bremen) to huge monsters like Northrhine-Westfalia. Each state has it's own government, typically elected every 5 years. Based on size and populace they also send members of the ruling partie(s) into the Bundesrat. States are responsible for police, culture and education and have their own finances. Elections in the states are staggered so that the Bundesrat changes composition during a Bundestags 4 year period.

 

States are broken down further into Kreise (Counties) some quite large (i.e Wesel has two major cities in it's borders, Steinfurt is 60x50km) and some the size of a city (actually called a "Kreisfreie Stadt" - "Countie-Free City") like Duisburg. These have a governing body (Kreistag) and their own finances. Finally the individual cities have their own government (Stadtrat - City council) that is also elected and has it's own finances

 

a) The law

 

German law is a french style "written" law that leaves quite a bit leeway in determing the punishment to the judge. There is no death penalty (and there can't be one due to the way our constitution is written :-) ) Law is seperated between criminal law and civil law. The first is quite straitforward an entitels the accused to a state payed lawjer[3] and the lawyer to total informations on the data gathered by the police/attorney of state. The second is a complicated swamp dating back 200 years and you pay your lawyer yourself (as does the other side)

 

All habeas corpus are in effect (although they can i.e take a blood sample) but unlike the USA you can't withdraw a testimony, you can just make a second that contradicts the first.

 

Most first-time offenders get of lightly since re-sozialisation is the core idea behind the system, not "lock them up and throw away the key". Sadly this leads to some repeating offenders that "graduate" from rape to rape&murder.

 

Making laws

 

Funny one. Some laws can be passed by the simple majority of the Bundestag (meaning the ruling partie(s) can do so alone), some need the Bundesrat to agree and some need a 2/3 majority in both houses (changes to the constitution).

 

c) The critters

 

The elected member of the Bundestag is only responsible to his own conscience (yeah, sure!). If he is voted in due to votes given to the party, the party "owns" his seat and can exchange him. This keeps the party members in line (sit in parliament for 6 years and you get a healthy! pension). If you own the seat due to direct election it is "yours" even if you change the party. The latter seats are a small minority.

 

d) Strong arm of the law

 

Germany has 5 different police organisations

 

- The police of the individual states has both uniformed beat cops and civil detectives and can operate totally independent. The share data over a computer system. They have their own SWAT (called MEK/SEK - Mobiles/Sonder Einsatz Kommando) Cooperation is quite good and cross-state chases are possible

 

- Each state has a central detective service (LKA - Landeskriminalamt) that acts as a central clearing house and connection to the

 

- BKA - Bundes-Kriminalamt (Basically the german FBI but minus the state security aspect)

 

- The GESTAPO err the Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz (Same guys, different name - Ministry for the defence of the constitution) They chase civilian spys. Each state also has a state branch of this ministry. They are also responsible for computer security etc. (Through the BSI - State center for Security in Information Technologie) They still use that nice leather raincoats.

 

- The "Bundesgrenzschutz". Officially the Borderguards but also used as a police of the german state. Includes the (in)famous GSG-9 anti terror organisation but is more famous for it's willingness to beat up demonstrators and then protect the officer(s) responsible. Uniformed police only.

 

II) The regions of germany

 

a) The Ruhr valley

 

The dying heart of german industrial culture this basically is one large city stretching from Dortmund in the east to Duisburg in the west (almost 80km) and in a triangle almost down to Duesseldorf in the south (about 50km)

 

This is one of the most densly populated areas of germany and one with the most diversity in people. Due to lack of jobs and perspective (up to 20% unemployment) crime and hate-organisations (Skins, Leftwings, Ethnic) are becoming a major problem.

 

Westfalia

 

The other part of Northrhine-Westfalia (it includes the Ruhr Valley also) is a rural area with some major cities (Munster, Rheine) Mostly known for it's agrarian regions it also has scattered industrie. Lightly populated and suffering a steady drain towards the bigger cities. Infrastructure is actually quite good as is education. This is the region where one is considered a "foreigner" if the family has been living here less that 200 years.

 

c) The South

 

The "catholic occupied zone" includes Bavaria and Baden-Wurtenberg. Famous for it's big cities (Munic, Frankfurt, Stuttgard) and it's car manufacturers (BMW, Porsche, Daimler) Aside from this few cities it is actually a quite rural and (religious) conservative region.

 

d) The east

 

The second big mistake in german history (the first was annexing bavaria) this is and will remain the poor-house of germany. Unemployment ist 15-20%, the younger people are fleeing and the western states pour huge sums into a black hole. Since most former GDR industrie died, this is an area with industrial ruins and wastelands scattered throug rural areas. Some big cities (Leipzig, Dreden) made a nice revival, some get tourism but most is desolate and run-down.

 

e) The north

 

Divided between the city states of Hamburg and Bremen and the state of Nether-Saxonie this is the area bordering the North and Baltic sea. Home to some of the biggest ports in europe it suffers from the stupidity of our politicians that allow shipbuilders to die but the dozend. Outside the big cities it is a region with small towns of fishermen and tourism. A long established tourism ensures a reasonable future for the region. East-Frisia (Ostfriesland) and it's citizens are also the butt of a good many yokes.

 

f) The rest

 

Regions like Cologne and the lower rhine valley are known for their friendly and laid-back (heavily french-influenced) style of living and their wine.

 

Regions like Nether-Saxony (the other "big" state) are known as places of desolation with few cities. Basically the same as Westfalia, also with the people being more open.

 

III) The general outlook

 

All germans younger than 40 speak the same (Hannoveranian/Prussian) dialect of german. Quite a few no longer speak a local dialect.

 

We germans love an orderly, well structured and secure life. That does not mean we obey the law on all cases. Just that we don't like changes and rules-free areas.

 

The major sport is football (or soccer as that rebellious british colonie calls it). US-style football (aka Rugby for whimps) never gained much popularity but Icehockey and Basketball did. Winter sports is limited due to lack of snow. Most germans can swim (due to schools)

 

Preferred drink is beer also preferrence of type varies with the region. Most prefer a "Pils" (think Budwiser with 4-5% alcohol) but darker beers (Alt, Kölsch) and Wheat (Weizen) Beers are popular in some regions.

 

Fast food is either US-style (McD/Burger King) or a variety of Greek, Turkish, Italian, Chinise and "classical" take away/delivery services

 

Business is restricted to Mo-Sa, 07:00-20:00 with the exception of some mini-marts on fuelstations, airports and train stations.

 

Cash deposit to an account is quite common and electronic cash is widly accepted. Credit cards are rare due to the well established European Cheque (EC) system. Money is the Euro.

 

Religion is a part of society but plays no major role in politics (the Christian Democrats are no more Christian than I am - and I am an atheist!) and marriage etc. is a state thing (since the 18th century) There is (sadly) religious education in schools [also those who don't believe can take alternate courses] Aside from Christianity (Equally divided between Roman-Catholics and Protestants] there are sizeable groups of Moslems (mostly Turkish), Buddists, Hinduists and Atheists. Religion is your own choise and most people don't care unless you start sacrificing virgins [now if you sacrifice mothers-in-law...]

 

Sexuality (and prevention) is seen a bit more loosely in germany with abortions being leagal in the first three month and contraceptives freely available. Nudity-taboos are laxer (i.e topless is widly accepted, nude in certain designated areas). Prostitution is not a crime if done by persons above 18 years, on their own free will and within speciall designated zones (i.e the famous Reeperbahn/Georgsstrasse)

 

Weapon possesion is rare and mostly in the hand of hunters, sports shooters and lizensed security companies. On the other hand quite a few german males can shoot (we still have the draft). Getting a weapons permitt is a length affair (basically 1+ years unless a certified hunter[and that is complicated also]) and even then military weapons are unavailable even in semi-auto versions

 

Foreign languages (English, often French or Lation, rarely Greek/Spanish/Russian) are taught from at least age 10 to at least age 16.

 

Public schools are the normal way of education as are public universities.

 

 

Pockets

 

 

[1] At least that is what they tell you

[2] German voters have two votes. One is for a party and is tallied against the 5% hurdle. The other is for a person in a US-style voting (The one with most votes gets elected) If a party gets 3 persons into the Bundestag through the direct vote, they are in even if they don't make the 5%.

[3] Due to the diffenrent system the accused chooses his lawyer so you get a capable one instead of an overworked newbie

 

Some more:

 

Rheinmetall MG42/59 aka MG-3:

 

7.62x51, Eff Range: 1100m, max 3600m, RoF 900 rpm, Weight around 12kg

belt fed

 

The folding stock HK G3A4 Version 2 (invard curved stock) is actually quite sturdy [The folding stock is mostly their so it can be used by vehicle crews / motorcycle drivers / tankers who otherwise tend to shoot themselves with the UZI) Acc should be similar to the base model G3 (aimed range 400m, 600 w/scope)

 

 

Mauser 98k:

 

7.92x57mm, Visor is ranged out to 800m, there where AP-Ammo (SmK) produced, 5rnd loading frame, bolt action

 

MP38/40 "Schmeisser"

 

9x19mm Para, 32 rounds box magazin (Basically an UZI-class)

 

 

Enfield SMLE

 

.303 rifle, 10 rounds magazin, bolt action, high ROF for this weapons class

 

 

 

Michael

 

 

Quote (Wenin @ July 21 2003,18:25)

During a night fire once (M-16s), my unit had a crap load of rounds left over.  We took about 6 of the day's best shooters and treated them with being able to rapid fire burn off as many magazines they wanted.  It's been about 12 years, but I recall after the seventh or eigth quick loaded magazine, the rounds started to cook off in the barrel.  Some people observing said they could see the bullets moving through the barrel just prior to the cook off conditions. FYI, don't lay a weapon that is cooking off rounds onto a sandbag.  LOL  You'll end up with glass covering the weapon. =)

An M16 (or any other assault/battle rifle for that matter) is not designed for extended automatic fire. Even the rather heavy barreled G3A3 gets warm after two magazins (40 rnds) in quick succession. No cook-offs or glowing, just a slight warms through the handguard.

 

            Michael

Quote (Hanns @ July 14 2003,06:50)

Well, I've had M60 barrels hot enough on occasion that they were glowing a nice cherry red color and I could light cigarettes off of them. It's not good for the barrel but I've never had one droop or blow up on me. Couple of times had the weapon so hot it started cooking off but you just grab the loose part of the belt and twist it apart and let the gun run out of ammo. I think the most rounds I ever burned off in a short period of time was around 800 or so. The ol' 60 was mighty warm and I started getting heat distortion from the barrel but it still worked. You can run a suprisingly large number of rounds through a single barrel in a short period of time before it will start to fail. WWII German MG42s had a cyclic rate of fire between 1200-1500 rpms and the rapid barrel changes were to keep the barrels from drooping and ruining the barrel. In training we really didn't worry about beating up the barrels too much, we always had a bunch of spares in the arms room and the old barrels got tossed out on a 6-12 month schedule depending on how much use they saw. It's only really important to watch barrel heating in a sustained combat environment where spare parts aren't readily available and you're trying to maintain your equipment. All bets are off when you're being charged by 2 million Chinese though, let the friggin' barrel melt, it's better than being dead! Cheers,    Hanns

Actually, the heavy metal case around the MG-42/MG3 (the one that makes it 2-3kg heavier than an M60) acts as a massiv heat sink. You can easily put 200 rounds through the bugger without getting the barrel more than "feelable" (through thin gloves) warm  (granted the MG3 has a slightly lower RoF). According to my grandfather, if the guys on the other side are shouting "Uräääää", even fourhundered are possible...

 

As for being "overshooten", that is something that allows a 190cm/110kg infantrymen to completely fold into a combat position. Even if he knows (I set the pig up) that the rounds have a meter+ to spare.

 

Since we also "tried" autoweapons on ex-conscripts (took them for our Corporal), I can assure you that trained personel tends to hit the ground and then! check wether it's life ammo or ManPat (it was the latter!) Still, a group suddenly opening up...

 

                   Michael

Quote

Quote No, if we take over another country it should have i) Good strong beer ii) Drinkable hard liquor iii) Attractive women iv) A nice countryside   Heheh - Australia's safe then. Though apparently our beer can improve the last 2. As evidenced by the expanding population of Cessnock and the number of beer bottles left around to improve the look of the place.     And I always thought you took the three best things ever developed on the Islands with you:   Scotch Guiness Tea Time   Two out of four and as you said, the other two can be helped   Quote OT: Well, my grand game conspiracy is coming along. I'm just still missing something. I need a reason for a government to be REALLY scared of something the people might do. That's the only thing thats missing. Stuff about repressing Patriots just isn't a good enough reason...despite the number of people convinced that's the policy of the US gov't. Suggestions?     Some ideas (straight from Pournelles CoDominion and ole Dark Conspiracy):   "Fact A:" The government is controlled by big money and/or controll of the big media (Like Oil Barons or Newspaper owners - Remember the Maine!)   "Fact B:" There are some "black sheep" that try to tell the truth (like BBC or Spiegel) and/or influence the people (like Unions or yer good old communist party)   "Fact C:" The Bigwigs are so far removed from reality and/or government is run by fanatics that are not as controllable as thought. They get this idea of "suppression of disident press" or even "voting power based on economic capabilities"   "Fact D:" Big industrie is dying. At least in the first world. Unless the population also dies, this leads to massiv groups of persons at minimum wages / supported wages. Add C to this and large groups of people end up without voting power.   "Fact E:" Panem et circencis sums up about thirty percent of my latin and still is true. Feet them and entertain them to keep them doctile. Maybe cheap drugs like Mariuhana for free. Still, the guys from A and C won't totaly trust this measures. And that means networks of snitches, surveillance, segregation of "dangerous elements",... All in secret since doing it openly might get the guys from C aroused. Or a revolt going.     Granted, in the CoDo they had a BuReloc that shipped you off to such nice planets as Heaven or Tanith (or Sparta for the lucky)   I suggest reading through GURPS Cyberworld and the some of the WarWorld novels for more ideas on repressive societies.                  Michael   -- I don't like bashing americans. Why should I get close when my MG3 outranges their M16

After reading the first link:

 

Well, US concentration camps (in the original, british sense) did exist for japanese immigrants and their children during WW2. Made (limited) sense. Just like the original ones.

 

So there are historic bases on this. Add the current treatment of certain POW's in Guantanamo and this stuff becomes a bit more solid.

 

Man, am I glad to be an old european. ;-)

 

 

Then I read some more links - And the authors of those are IMHO certificable nutcases. Some hints:

 

The Sowjet tanks mentioned are donations from Israel and West Germany used for targets, testing and OpFor

 

The german airfarce guys at Holloman are:

  a) Not soldiers (They're airforce) ;-)

  There for training

  c) Flying state of the art stealth planes of the F4F Phantom series ;-))

 

If somebody really brings in what amounts to three sowjet armies (doable with the hedgepot US citizenship) they would have no problems bringing in at least the infantry weapons

 

Foreign troops at Reilley (isn't that the Ranger training place) could be guys like SAS or GSG9 on exchange

 

The Nazis only had one list - those to arrest

 

Why should anybody want to take over a nation where:

 

 i) The beer is like sex in a canoo

 ii) The "hard liquor" is only good as a window cleaner

 iii) There are more guns than people

 iv) The average town has more gangs than Europe has countries

 v) Half the area is only fertile with huge technical effort

 vi) Sixty percent of the people (and therefor the females) are overweight

 

No, if we take over another country it should have

 

 i) Good strong beer

 ii) Drinkable hard liquor

 iii) Attractive women

 iv) A nice countryside

 

Hmm, since we already control France and Germany - It's time for a "Sealion Revival Tour". Let's invade Britain. ;-)

 

 

 

As for using that as a background:

 

Not likely to happen since that would mean playing the bad guys - none of my players like playing an Ami

 

Tooo wired. Much too wired

 

I could settle for a "US forces invading civilised europe" scenario for Twighlight.

 

I might adopt some ideas for a "bad US" from it, once I get myself to play a "CP Version" of "Falkenbergs Legion". Those make good ideas for BuReloc.

 

 

                     Michael (Not taking that serious)

FYI: I am a software developer, age 35

 

Current kit:

 

Cell phone (so no need for a clock)

Wallet with Eurocheck-card (no need for credit card in germany)

               State-issued id card

               Company issued id card&entry coin

               Cash-card for company cafeteria

               Library card

               Some money (20-100€)

Walkman (really a Walkman!)

Jacket

Keys (two seperate sets)

 

 

If I carry a attache case it normaly has:

 

A4 notepad and 2-3 pens (screwball)

Graphic calculator (TI-82)

Some software documentation

 

In my car:

 

Full 1st Aid kit (required in germany)

Basic toolkit

Cross-cables for starting car with a dead battery

Drivers licence

Window-cleaner

Bottle of water (drinking), water (cooler-refill), oil

 

 

In my appartment:

 

3 computers and network equipment

1 Monitor

Printer, Scanner etc.

Large racks with books (about 200)

 

Large Couch&Table as well as couch chair

Minor cupboards, Stereo and TV

 

Complete kitchen (Sink, freezer, stove, microwave)

Complete bath (cleaner/dryer)

 

Bed

Two large clothing cupboards(correct word?)

 

Complete house-appliance toolkits (electrical/mechanical)

Electrical drill

Soldering iron (electronic repair type)

Amperemeter

Modeling tools (Plastics modeling)

 

 

Thats all folks also it might change if I get below 150kg and start shooting again.

On mines and tanks:

 

a) Mine fields are not there to kill

 

If they do, great. But their main mission is to delay and re-route. They are even officially marked with high-visible signs in yellow. So, as someone stated, a minefield must be guarded. AP minefields by a group/platoon with a well-emplaces MG, AT minefield as above (They are normaly AP also) with some tanks/ATGM for support[1]

 

Btw, if you step on a S-Mine (or the numerous US/USSR copies) you're not a cripple - you're dead!

 

A lone tank is dead

 

Sure, head on Leo II A6 eats everything. But his sides are weaker and the rear is the most vulnerable part. So tanks come in platoons of four with IFV for support. Common behaviour upon seeing the dust-cloud of a ATGM launch is to fire at the spot - maybe you get the gunner, maybe he get's nerves.

 

c) Weak top&belly

 

Modern tanks have a good mine-protection on the hull but the tracks still fly off when they hit a mine, causing an M(obility) Kill. Still, the turret works!

 

The top is even weaker. Firing down on the top is the best way to kill a tank. Best done with a modern RPG in a city.

 

d) Tanks die in the city

 

Tanks life depends on speed and mobility. A city restricts both. Sure, they can drive through a building - If the basement holds. And nobody stacked some remote-detonated mines there. All it took the Palestinensians to kill a Merkava III was some 120kg of explosives[2]

 

Blowing up the sewers (full of petrol), weakening parts of the road, dropping buildings to slow tanks down and lot's of mortars to seperate infantry and tanks[3] are all common tactics.

 

 

        Horrido, joho!

 

                Pockets

 

 

 

 

[1] This is the reason germany still has Leopard I - still makes a great AT-weapon

[2] And that bugger is tough!

[3] In the city they have to dismount or they become targets

Quote (malek77 @ Aug. 07 2002,06:43)

From the Russian school of HtH combat with tanks, I've heard of an anti tank technique that involved a hammer and a crowbar. Step 1: run up beside the tank. Step 2: place the crowbar point on a track pin. Step 3: strike pin out, thus 'tracking' the tank. (I think the anti-tank mine dogs were a better idea! )

Quote

From the Russian school of HtH combat with tanks, I've heard of an anti tank technique that involved a hammer and a crowbar. Step 1: run up beside the tank. Step 2: place the crowbar point on a track pin. Step 3: strike pin out, thus 'tracking' the tank. (I think the anti-tank mine dogs were a better idea! )

 

Yup, they made greate company mascots according to my grandfather. Not afraid of the Panther's engine and such stuff.

 

 

The article:

 

The swedish department of weapons aquisiton FWM asked the research institude FOI together with a commercial joint-venture consistinc of the companies Hägglunds Vehicle, Bofors Defence and Saab Baracuda to develop and build a stealth tank. The experimental vehicle, based on the CV9040 Infantery fighting vehicle[1] is known as the SAT/Mark (Signature Management Technologie/Land) and is said to be equiped with extensive camouflage technologies covering the whole electromagnetic spectrum

 

The picture shows the new camouflage paint[2]. The clean/smooth outer hull and the small angles of the hull-parts are the result of a requirement to reduce the Radar-Crosssection - this includes the cover for the normally round weapon barrels.

 

Not visible on first sight are the measures taken to reduce the infrared signature. It would be interesting to know, what measures have been taken to reduce the acoustic, seismic and magnetic signature[3] - camouflage measures in this area are considered critical for future armored vehicles.

 

It should be remembered that germany realised a similar vehicle in 1987 with the Experimental Vehicle Complete/Total Protection (VTGS) based on the Leopard I tank.

 

 

                Pockets

 

 

[1] The CV90 is well armed but armored like the US M2/M3 Bradley - with coke cans.

[2] That paint is hopefully better against IR and less poisenous than the similar paint-sheme the german army used in the 1980's

[3] Anti-magnetic steel was tried in the Series 205 submarines by HDW. It worked nice but was extremely suspicious to corrosion

Quote (FIX @ Aug. 02 2002,07:27)

I understand that there was some intrest in Germany to develop a  true assualt rifle in the 1930s that was nixed for political reasions.   Is that correct?

Quote

I understand that there was some intrest in Germany to develop a  true assualt rifle in the 1930s that was nixed for political reasions.   Is that correct?

 

A semi-automatic rifle was tried multiple times starting mid-1917. True assault-rifles where deemed unnecessary since high-volume firepower at longer ranges was left to the MG (German platoons had/have organic MG's) while short-range semi-auto was handeled by 9mm Para MPi's (starting 1918 with a Bergmann)

 

The programs where run by the industrie until 1938 when the Heereswaffenamt (Army department of weapons) asked for a gas-operated semi-auto rifle in 7.92x57. The results where the G41 and G42 rifles (The later is used by the german sniper in Shaving Privat Ryan. And, together with Stug44 should! have been used by a recently refitted WaffenSS in the final scenes)

 

The Kurzpatrone (short cartridge - 7.92x39mm) was a private venture/experiment started AFAIK in the 1920's. Originally it tried to use the same bullet as the 7.92x57 and failed. It was taken up again in 1941/42 when it became clear that the G42 was still to complicated and difficult to use.

 

           Pockets

Quote (Darthmurph @ Aug. 01 2002,03:00)

Yeah, well in the 1930s the German army did not see a need for an automatic rifle. THen they ran up against the M1 and suddenly started producing (albeit in small numbers) sutomatic rifles...

Quote

Yeah, well in the 1930s the German army did not see a need for an automatic rifle. THen they ran up against the M1 and suddenly started producing (albeit in small numbers) sutomatic rifles...

 

Darthmurph: Null Punkte

 

Sorry but:

 

The G41/G42 automatic rifles (magazin fed, gas operated) where developed starting 1938. German bureaucracy rather than military "farseeing" delayed them[1]

 

The FG42 was developed starting around mid-1940

 

And don't forget that since 1934 we had a nice maschine gun (MG34, MG42[2])

 

So the officers in the field wanted one but bureaucracy delayed it. On the other hand, if we hadn't done so, Mikail Kalashnikov would have to do all his design work alone...

 

 

                 Michael

 

 

[1] I.e. Insisting that the barell should not be drilled for a gastap etc.

[2] And the MG42/59 still is great. Used by three generations so far

Quote (Bookwyrm @ July 31 2002,10:38)

Quote not what some Hollywood director thinks it should look like. So which films are good, then? Actualy SNIPER (with Tom Berenger) isn't that bad. And the lead-in scenes from the Redford/Pitt film (Redford plays the old CIA guy)   But some rules for military snipers[4]:   a) Get a partner or two   Snipers often work in teams: 1 Shooter, 1 Spotter (1 Security) since a Sniperrifles scope has a very small field of view   Conceal yourself   Ghillie suits, hiding in houses etc, changing position after a shot[1] and the methods described earlies for building up a position[2]   c) Expect the worst   If you kill the right person or annoy the enemy long enough, they use anything from 5.54mm to 406mm[3] against your estimated position   d) Snipers are Infantrie   First you become an Infantrieman, than you become a sniper. So you'll have all the Skills of GI Joe.   e) Killing is icing on the cake   It's nice to kill your target. If you badly wound it, it's also ok. Guaranteed kills are for police snipers   f) People are not the only targets   Sometimes you are called upon to destroy propertie that is difficult to replace. A bullet in the nose-cone of a jet-fighter will destroy the radar, rendering the bugger less-usefull[6]   g) Sniping is not a skill   A good marksman is not automatically a sniper. German/UdSSR/French forces had a dedicated "precision shooter" among their ranks. That guy used a scoped rifle with a better precision/ammo (HK G3ZF, Dragunov, FN-MAS49) for engaging targets of opportunity beyond normal range but pulled normal squad duty otherwise.   Sniping is IMHO:   High Weapon Skill for hitting   Some Weapon Tech for keeping the beast working   Good Stealth/Cammouflage skill for getting into position and recon   Good Awareness/Notice for quick reaction when the target appears   High Willpower for waiting for the perfect opportunity   High Endurance for keeping up with the rigors of living in the field with even less amenities than Schuetze Arsch   Enough Empathy to work with your team   Willingness to become a weapon of terror, a trained assasin[5]                          Michael     [1] Or the MARDER's might get you by blanking the area with nice heat-shadow with 20mm HE.   [2] Also this is more QCB (house-to-house) fighting.   [3] The story still goes that the USMC used a fragging battlewagon against snipers in Beirut. Or that german SFOR/KFOR personell used 120mm tank guns   [4]Police snipers work different. After all, they don't have to escape after the hit, don't need to be perfectly concealed and work under the assumption to KILL!   [5]Snipers are, among other things, there to "harrass" the enemy   [6] A bullet in the radar of a AAA tank will make the commander mad, rendering you quite dead!

Quote

I'd be more than happy enough with a laser-guided missile pistol.  Or even a refined gyrojet (ceramic exhaust port?) with a CO2 cold-launch system (prevent IR tracking getting too accurate).  Thoughts?  And what about model rocket engines?  They're fairly stable, and that's without the benefit of gyro-tailpipes.  Fin stabilized dumb micromissiles?  Sounds kinda like the Air Force's 3" Mighty Mouse rockets.

 

Well, cold launching adds weight. Compare MILAN and TRIGAT ATGM's (same purpose&company) for weight

 

Laser-Targeting needs a laser-designator (and not the puny red dot stuff - a pulse-coded thing with som Ooomp against dust etc) => More weight

 

Model rockets use IIRC "exhaust-rudders" (german term Strahlruder) in the exaust to remain vertical. And most are finned and use guidance sticks during the first seconds of launch.

 

Dumb missiles can do nothing, a bullet can't do either. FFAR's and similar dumb rockets are used as area-saturation weapons.

 

IMHO missile pistols/rifles are only useful in space. On earth they are useless.

 

               Michael

I must admit, I still don't see the reason for an OICW (neither does the german army ) While they are currently field-testing the european answer to Landwarrior (of with the OICW is a part) they stick with the H&K G36, adding two UGL per squad. An integrated night sight is planned (G36 is already adapted for the stuff). No fancy electronic toys overloading the soldier. And that for an army that requires (and gets) IQ100+ for draftees and 110+ for longer termed soldiers.

 

IMHO they should have skipped the whole "toygun" stuff and commissioned H&K to build a Year2000 version of the H&K G3 as well as one of their 40mm HK-69 grenade pistol. Than give the infantry some good marksmanship-training. Sure they'll carry less ammo - but they don't need it either.[1]

 

               Michael

 

[1] Yes, I know how heavy the stuff was. Carried it some distances regularly back in the 80s. Unless I got the MG3 that is.

Quote (psychophipps @ July 26 2002,20:26)

Umm...the M-60 is an excellent weapon that does it's job quite well, thanks.  Where did you hear otherwise? Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

>Umm...the M-60 is an excellent weapon that does it's job >quite well, thanks.  Where did you hear otherwise?

 

>Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

 

Various sources including:

 

Various technical (not! RPG) productions stating problems in cooling, barrel changing and

 

The US-Army switching to the M240 despite having ordered the fifth version of the M60 a few years ago

 

US soldiers cursing the thing during REFORGER 1987 due to reliability problems and maintenance difficulties

 

Myself firing that thing and getting a jam after less than 30 rounds - My MG3, despite being older (an MG1 refit from 1963) never does that.

 

Myself being informed about a) The barrel change intervall The change process of the barrel (basically you needed two people and had to pull the weapon from the firing position)

 

Me knowing that the firing mechanism is lifted from the FG-42 (not! the MG-42) and the quality of that weapon.

 

                     Pockets

 

--

Me: You mean I should change the barrel after 100-150 rnds

US PFC: No, you must! It's only mandatory in your MG, not ours.

(We bought him a beer that evening - nice guy after all)

As for ammo from the sea:

 

The reference is to small arms ammo from USS Maine (ca. 1900 IIRC) It spend a few years under water in cases, wrapped in oilpaper etc. was taken out and cleaned, then fired. Mil Ammo is often laquered and otherwise waterproofed.

 

As to damage 9mm vs 140mm:

 

An anti tank shell (AP) will not transfer all it's energy in a human being or a normal vehicle. So in a system designed for human/human combat, some power simply is wasted.

 

The MM Vehicle combat system and FUZION introduce ways to model "big gun on hard/soft target" combat far better than FNFF.

 

 

Some things from reality:

 

A 120mm APFSDS from a Leopard II will punch through a Lada without doing much damage. That's why they didn't use the main gun against the two ideotic Serbs in the Kosovo according to the tank commander.

 

Depending on the setting and type some HEAT-Shells will not work against soft targets or when striking the ground. DualUse RPG's (RPG-7 isn't) either use different grenades or a variable setting fuse like Panzerfaust III. Using older german RPG's against "soft" targets required firing them against something solid (walls etc) to be sure they explode (At least that was the drill in 1987)

 

Normally one does not use AP/HEAT against "soft" targets. That's the reason every tank gun has a HE or Fragmentation ammo (also some don't have HEAT) and why the Brit's like HESH so much.

 

There are nummerous "bad" weapons in service. Ask the Brits (Enfield L80, Spigot-Mortar RPG), the US (M16 no bloddy A, A1..., M60) the French (Chauchat MG) or the germans (Mauser G41, Pistol 08) Often it's "cheapest source" not "best weapon". The RPG-7 is a classical example since the fuse shortens out easily. And the Bundeswehr still searches the "genius" that decided to go to lighter materials in the P38->P1 transfer...

 

 

                      Michael

 

--

I have no problems with that Techno Freak. So his music does 144 beats per minute. If it get's on my nerves, my MG-3 does about 600 rounds per minute...