Blackbagger

Hi. I've posted this on another forum, but I have a pretty good system for blunt attacks that works well without having to change the SP that armors give.

 

Any blunt attack (punch, kick, club, whatever) does only half stun/half deadly damage. Calculate the damage as normal (base weapon dice + MArts level if its a weapon from the style your character has + bonus from BT). 1/2 this damage, rounded down is normal, the other 1/2 is stun damage. They only get 1/2 SP against the damage, but it is applied against all the normal damage 1st. If they have extra SP, then it goes against the stun damage. They then roll a stun check at the total level of their stun + normal damage and a mortal check without stun damage. So, for example:

 

Ken who has level 8 JKD and a 12 BT, hits Joe (a security guard in SP14 armor and a 8 BT) with his fist. Ken does 1D6/2 for the punch + 8 for Sambo + 4 for his BT. Let's say he rolls 2 points, so he does 14 total (7 lethal, 7 stun). Joe gets 7 ponts of armor against this and 3 for his BTM, so he takes no lethal and 4 stun damage - he probably doesn't go out.

 

Next time, Ken bashes Joe with a nunchuku (3d6 base). He rolls 10 damage, plus BT and skill gets 20 damage (10 lethal, 10 stun). Joe takes off 7 from his armor (down to 3 lethal, 10 stun) and 3 for his BTM (2 lethal, 8 stun). He makes a stun check at Stun -2 (and might go out), and has 2 points of lethal damage.

 

This system doesn't beef up HTH damage too much, but people to subdue foes even in heavy armor if they are good with MArts and especially if they use a melee weapon or a cyberlimb attack. But it still doesn't allow anyone to just club a heavily armored foe to death with ease. Let's face it, trying to punch through a flak jacket IS tough - superhuman characters can do some damage, but in any case a gun is better and it should always be that way.

Ok, I posted some of these rules a while back, but here's my new version. Use it if you like, or modify it. Overall, I think my rules make the game flow more smoothly. They also make smaller weapons and a few other weapons that are basically useless in standard rules a bit usable.

 

House Rules for Cyberpunk 2020

Character Creation

Skills:

Characters can either be single or multi-class.  Single-class characters are made as normal.  Multi-class characters get to take 2 special abilities.  Their class skills should be determined, with the GM’s help, by combining the 2 skill lists of the classes they combined, and choosing half the skills from each list.  Generally speaking, a skill on both lists must be on the combined list, but I leave the rest up to my players and try to make a decision based on their character’s background.

Single-class characters cannot start with any skill over level 6.  Multi-class characters cannot start with either of their special abilities over level 3, but all other skills can be up to level 6.  Multi-class characters are also considered to have a max of 5 for each special ability, and raising their special abilities has an IP multiplier of 2.  Occupation skill points cannot be added or combined with pickup skill points on the same skill.

Every character starts with their native language at level 6 for free and Streetspeak and/or any other languages with a total # of points equal to the INT x1/2.  So with a 10 INT I could start with English (native) level 6, Streetspeak level 2, and French level 3.  Pickup skill points can be added to any of these languages or put into new languages at will.  And if you want to speak a ton of languages for little cost, get it through skillsofts.

Secondary skills all cost half their level in pickup skill points.  These are skills not listed in the books/character sheet that are like professional skills/sports/or hobbies.  If you buy a sport as a secondary skill, when rolling for that sport, the total roll should be the character’s REF + the sport level + Athletics + 1d10.  Expert (something) skills also cost 1/2 at character creation, and ANY class can put leftover occupation skill points into Expert skills related to their class.

 

Money and Equipment:

All characters receive 2x the listed max money amount for their class as if they had a 10 in their special ability and don’t need to roll for starting money.  Players cannot take the extra 10,000 option.  Any piece of equipment from any of the books (except Cybergeneration) can be bought, but items with a listed availability of R or worse are unavailable at character creation.

Only regular armor is available (no metal gear or anti-AP armor).  Armor can be bought to cover all hit locations at double the cost of a jacket/t-shirt cost, multiply x the clothing cost for different fashion levels.  Use the main book for armor rules, not any of the sourcebooks, and armor stacking IS ok.  If you have a cyberlimb and wear armor over it (not built-in) you won’t usually be able to use any pop-up guns or any other built-in weapons (except ones just in the hand), but you don’t get any REF penalty for armor layering and DO get the extra armor SP from stacking.

Vehicles bought at character creation cost 1/10 the listed cost.

Only the following ammo types are available to start: regular caseless, brass cased, plasticase, AP, DP, API, and any standard ammo types for specific guns that themselves aren’t R availability.

 

Cyberwear:

No Orbital Crystal Cyberwear is allowed, except the cyberarm that’s listed in one of the style sections (it costs 1/2 humanity as a normal cyberarm – any options and guns put in it cost x4 but also cost 1/2 humanity).  You don’t have to pay surgery costs for starting cyberwear.

None of the gene modification techniques is available to start, but Rippers, Scratchers, and other equipment bought at the reduced humanity costs in the section on animal/playbeings are all ok.  And remember, you have to have a basic neuralware processor to get any neuralware, but most other components can be bought piecemeal.  Cyberweapons not in the cyberlimb tables can be put in a meat or cyber limb, but cyberlimb options can never be put in a meat limb except where specifically noted.  If you have 2 cybereyes, you get 8 total option spaces and BOTH eyes are assumed to have all options.  Skinweave gives armor to every location, except cyberlimbs which must be armored separately, and the torso or head if either are armored in another way.

Never roll for humanity losses – all D6s are considered 3 and all 1D6/2s are considered 1.5 for our campaign.

 

Charater Advancement

IP:

At the end of each adventure players get IP from the GM.  Costs to raise skills/abilities are on the following table.  Skills with an IP multiplier just multiply that by the base cost on the table.  Multiclassed characters have an IP multiplier of x2 for their special abilities; this goes up to x4 when raising a special ability over 5, and is x8 when raising the ability over 10.  A skill can be raised any number of points up to level 3 after 1 adventure, but above level 3 only 1 point per adventure is allowed.

Remember that a language at level 3 is good enough to get by speaking it.

Solos, Rockerboys, Cops, and Nomads (or any multiclass character with 1 of their skills) buy Combat or sneaky skill in the main book or martial art form at an IP cost of 1 less if the skill had an IP cost over 1.  Techies and Medtechies have all of their technical and INT skill IP costs reduced by 1.  Corporates, Techies, Medtechies, and Medias all can buy Expert skills for an IP cost of 1/2 (rounded up) and everyone can buy Secondary skills for an IP cost of x1/2, and both can be raised 2 points after each adventure up to level 6, then 1 point per adventure as normal.

Type:                   IP Cost to Raise:

Skill level 1            1

Skill                      the level you are going to

Skill over level 10   the level you are going to x2

Attribute                the level you are going to x2

Attribute over 10    the level you are going to x4

 

Buying New Cyberwear:

After character generation, cyberwear can be added, but all cyberwear and surgery costs x10 the listed price.  Pay only the surgery cost of the highest level of surgery you will have in 1 sitting.  Orbital Crystal Cyberwear costs x4, but has 1/2 the humanity cost and any SDP of orbital items is doubled.  Traveling to outer space just for surgery costs 100,000, but then you don’t have to pay any more for surgery costs.

 

Finding Stuff:

Generally speaking, roll a Streetwise check to find things, based on the following table.  Streetdeal and Resources rolls are made at 1 difficulty level lower if the item fits in with the character’s area of expertise/corporate profile.

Rarity:  Check:

C          15

P          20

R          25

VR        30

VVR      35

At +5 to the availability, you can have armor custom made to allow access to pop-up guns and other cyberweapons while wearing it.  This costs whatever the armor would cost x2.  Metalgear costs x10 the listed price and is Rare.

 

Combat

Called Shots:

The penalty for called shots has been increased.  Hitting the head or vitals is now a –8 to your attack roll.  Limbs are at a –6, and the torso is the base –4.  Other smaller areas (eyes, fingers, etc.) would be at a –10.  Called shots don’t usually ignore armor if the target is wearing a suit that covers the whole body, but if the target is wearing multiple layers and one could conceivably avoid a layer a called shot could do damage at the reduced armor SP.  Called shots can’t be made with full autofire attacks, but a burst called shot can be made – it just loses the burst attack bonus of +3 and still gets the normal minus for the called shot.

 

Initiative boosts and dodging:

In my rules, Speedwear gives a +3 to IN rolls and Kerenzikov gives +1 per level, period.  Boostmaster gives a +1 to REF while in use.  Other initiative boosting cyberwear proposed on the net doesn’t exist.

So a cybered up runner with a natural REF of 10, speedwear, boostmaster, and an adrenal booster can have a max REF of 12 and base initiative of 15 +1d10 when boosting.

Incoming ranged attacks would normally be at a –3 to hit this character for his high REF, but in my system, initiative boosting cyberwear now also gives a penalty to ranged attacks.  –2 to be hit for speedwear or –1 to be hit for each point of Kerenzikov.  So this runner with his boosted REF of 12 and speedwear is –5 to be hit.

Now, every character has a Dodge rating.  It is the maximum penalty they can cause their opponents to hit them in ranged combat.  So my example runner has a Dodge of 0 when unboosted or a 5 when fully boosting.

 

Armor Notes:

Armor SP16 or lower usually has no REF penalty.  Armor SP18 has a -1, and SP20+ has a -2.  Armor SP16 or higher can NEVER be considered high-fashion (so don’t buy it), and any armor SP18 or higher will be obviously armor to anyone with half a brain, no matter how stylin yours is.  Technically speaking in Night City it’s illegal to wear over SP14 armor and it’s illegal to carry anything bigger than a 10mm handgun, but unless you’re in a corp zone you can usually get away with up to SP18 and 12mm handguns or 10mm machinepistols in plain view of the police, and you can get away with anything if it isn’t noticed.

 

Extra Head Armor:

Wearing extra armor on the head (say an SP20 helmet over SP14 armored clothing) is ok and doesn’t impose any REF penalty, but each extra piece gives the wearer a -2 to Awareness checks and -1 to initiative, and of course has a big negative effect in social situations.  Skinweave does count as an armor layer for extra armor bonuses but never imposes a penalty to REF or Awareness.  If you want to wear a helmet and have armored clothing on you can either take the penalty and say you are layering, or you can just use the helmet’s SP and say they aren’t layered.

 

AP Rules:

When rolling damage for AP attacks (or any attack where penetrating damage is halved or multiplied in some way), first roll the damage total, then subtract armor (at 1/2 value usually), then subtract BTM, and lastly divide by 2 (or whatever the multiplier is), rounding down.  Head damage is doubled at the end.  So a hit with a 7.62mm AP round to the head rolls 6D6+2, getting a 24 for example.  The guy has a helmet on of SP 20 so I subtract 10 for a total of 14.  His BTM is –5 so now the total is 9, divided by 2 is 4, x2 for head damage is 8 – he’s in a coma possibly dead.

API rounds do the extra damage AFTER the damage calculation is made, and only do the extra damage if the victim took at least 1 point of regular damage; don’t double extra damage for head hits.  And since it’s considered separate damage, the fire damage cannot destroy any normal limb or head.  A limb that is destroyed by the normal damage (16 plus) doesn’t take any fire damage from the API effect.

 

Shooting around cover:

Standard CP2020 rules seem to assume you always try to shoot through cover.  In many cases, it would be easier to damage the foe by shooting around the utility pole, or whatever they’re hiding behind.  In each case, calculate the penalty to hit based on the percentage of the target’s body that is covered.  A miss is a miss – you were trying to shoot around the cover and don’t get a chance to shoot through it if you roll badly.  25% cover gives a -2, 50% a -4, 75% a -6, and 90% cover is a –8 to the attack roll.  Note: this is for shooting PAST cover.  If you don’t want these hit penalties, just shoot THROUGH the cover and use standard CP2020 rules.

 

Shooting through crowds:

Shooting at someone in a crowd is quite tough.  You get a – to the hit roll based on how many people are around them.  If it’s a loosely packed crowd –4, a more dense crowd gives –6, and a tight crowd like at a busy train station would be –8.  There’s an extra –2 if the crowd is very noisy or rowdy.  Of course there’s 1 exception, if your gun has a cookie-cutter and everyone in the crowd except your target has a badge or is a preset friend, you get only a –4 penalty no matter how big or rowdy the group is.

 

HTH Damage:

Use all PAC-Rim rules, except: people with block as a key move don't get to reduce damage on a failed block, but they can block melee weapon attacks with their bare hands, and people with dodge as a key move only get the extra ability that if they dodge a melee weapon, the 1st dodge they do in any combat round doesn't give them a -3 to further attacks.  Damage for edged weapons is applied normally.  Damage for blunt weapons and strikes with the body are applied as follows:

 A: Divide the damage in half, half is lethal the other half is stun. If the damage total was odd, the extra point goes to the lethal half.

 B: The target gets only half their SP. It is applied to the lethal damage first. If their armor stops all the lethal damage, the extra SP is applied against the stun damage.

 C: Subtract BTM (if you use BTM in your campaign). If any lethal damage is left, they get half their BTM (rounded down) against it. As usual, BTM cannot reduce lethal damage below 1. Any BTM points not applied to lethal damage go against the stun damage.

 D: At that point, roll a mortal check, if necessary, against the lethal damage total, roll a stun check once at the total damage level of the lethal plus stun damage. The stun damage is only temporary, however, and is not applied on their damage chart.

 For example, a guy with a cyberleg with thickened myomars, karate skill of 8, and a BT of 12 will do an average damage of 26 pts of damage with a kick. If he hits a guard with metal gear and a BT of 8, he does 13 lethal, 13 stun, - 12 for the metal gear = 1 lethal, 13 stun, -BTM = 1 lethal, 11 stun. So the guard doesn't need to make a mortal check, but needs to make a stun check at Stun -2 (for the 12 temporary damage). After this attack, 1 points of damage are applied to his damage record. If he had been hit in the head, the damage would have been doubled, but he would still have only taken 2 points of lethal damage, and would have had to roll a stun check at Stun –5 (for the 24 points of temp damage).

 

Burst Accuracy:

Burst fire attacks still get the +3 to hit, but there is a special rule.  For every 5 points you beat the target number to hit, you can be assumed to hit with at least 1 more bullet.  So if I need a 12 to hit someone with a 3-shot burst and hit with a 22, I automatically hit with all 3 shots.  Burst hits also all hit the same area, except with autoshotguns, which depend on range.

 

Autofire Damage:

Attacking with autofire is rolled per standard rules, but damage is done differently.  Look at the following table to see how to add damage.  Full auto and burst attacks use this system to determine damage, but not covering fire.

 

Base Dice:  Effect:

1D6           All hits to each location are considered 1 attack, so you roll the total damage to a location, then subtract armor and BTM once only.  Torso hits get the full dice per bullet that hit, but limb and head hits only get 1D6 extra for each extra bullet after the 1st.  So if I hit 5 times to any one location with a .177 explosive round, I do 5D6+20 damage (1D6+4 rolled 5 times) if it’s a torso hit, or 5D6+4 if it’s a limb hit - armor - BTM once to that area.  Do this for each location that is hit.

 

2D6           Hits to limbs and head are rolled as separate attacks for damage.  Hits to the torso are considered 1 attack, so add up the damage from all hits and they get armor and BTM once.  So if I hit someone in the torso 3 times with a .45, I do 6D6+6 damage - armor - BTM once.

 

3-4D6        Hits to limbs and head are rolled as separate attacks as above.  Hits to the torso are considered 1 attack, but they only get 2D6+any plus for each extra bullet after the 1st.  So 2 hits of an 11mm to the torso does 5D6 damage (base damage 3D6 + 2D6 extra for the 2nd bullet) - armor - BTM.  3 Hits of 12mm to the torso does 8D6+3 damage (base damage 4D6+1 + 2D6+1 each for the 2 extra hits) - armor - BTM.

 

5-6D6        Hits to limbs and head are rolled separately.  Hits to the torso are considered 1 attack, but they only get 1D6+any plus for each extra bullet after the 1st (minuses are not stacked).  So 2 hits of 7.62mm to the torso does 7D6+4 damage.

 

7D6+         All hits are rolled seperately.

 

Shotguns firing shot:

Attacks with shotguns are very deadly.  At Medium range or closer, each hit with a shotgun firing shot rolls 1D6/2 subhits.  At Medium range, roll for each subhit’s hit location as if it was a separate attack, but at Close and PB range, all subhits from a single attack hit the same area – roll once for location.  Called shots with shotguns firing shot are now only possible when firing semi-auto at Close or PB range.  And yes, autoshotguns firing shot DO hit with 1D6/2 subhits per hit if in the right range.

Damage is calculated in a special way.  Subhits from 1 attack that hit the same location add damage – + the full base damage up to 4D6 for torso subhits and + 2D6 per extra subhit to limbs and the head.  So if I hit with 2 subhits of a 12ga in 1 attack to the head and 3 subhits in another attack to the torso, the head takes 6D6 damage and the torso takes 12D6 damage (each getting its full armor and BTM once).  Subhits from separate attacks that hit the same area don’t add damage at all.

 

Flame Weapons:

Flame weapons hit with 1D6/2 subhits per attack at Medium or closer range.  Subhit locations are always rolled separately, but any that hit the same area are added for damage purposes.  Fire damage doesn’t disable or destroy limbs unless they take double the normal amount required to do so.  Armor SP20 or higher has full effect against fire attacks.  Armor under SP20 can be made flame-resistant at +20% cost, but it’ll look ugly unless you also pay to make it some kind of higher fashion level.  Non-resistant armor provides no protection.  In any case, when you’re hit by a fire attack any worn armor is damaged -2SP per hit, and you’ll usually take more damage per turn (but not more -2SPs).

 

Lasers/Microwavers:

In addition to any other effects, you get NO armor vs. these weapons, but microwavers don’t do double damage to the head.

 

Fletchette Weapons:

Fletchers, like the Malorian Arms Sub-Fletchette gun, add all damage from sub-penetrators for each hit before subtracting armor once, but don’t add damage for separate attacks or for multiple hits on autofire.  And of course even at long range all penetrators from a single hit always hit 1 location and thus add damage before the victim gets armor and BTM.  So if I attack with a burst and hit 3 times – 2 torso and 1 R Arm and roll 3 4 and 2 for the number of penetrators, the torso then takes 1 hit of 3D6 damage and 1 hit of 4D6, and the arm takes 1 hit of 2D6 damage, each getting armor (at x1/4 usually) and BTM once.

 

Limbs in Combat:

8 points of damage to a limb disables it, at 16 it is destroyed/severed.  This is always in 1 hit, so a disabled limb that takes another 8pt hit isn’t destroyed.  Hits to a normal limb that do more than 16 points of damage do all the damage to the target.  If a limb is disabled the victim must make an extra stun save that round.  If a limb is destroyed they must make an extra Mortal 0 save.  A disabled head results in instant unconsciousness and they must make an extra Mortal 0 save.  And of course a destroyed head means you’re dead dead dead.

Cyberlimb damage is separate always and doesn’t result in BT saves.  Damage that “over-destroys” a cyberlimb is ignored, but then any hits to the destroyed cyberlimb in turns after it is destroyed are rerolled.  A disabled cyberlimb can be repaired for 1D6 x 1000 Eb, but a destroyed one must be replaced, and will cost all the surgery costs and money as if you were buying a new limb.

Here are some HTH rules that seem to work well. They are similar to rules I've found online in various places, with a few slight mods:

1. Use all PAC-Rim rules, except:

 A: People with block as a key move don't get to reduce damage on a failed block, but they can block melee weapon attacks with their bare hands.

 B: People with dodge as a key move only get the extra ability that if they dodge a melee weapon, the 1st dodge they do in any combat round doesn't give them a -3 to further attacks.

2. Damage is rolled normally for all attacks.

3. Damage for edged weapons is applied normally.

4. Damage for blunt weapons and strikes with the body are applied as follows:

 A: Divide the damage in half, half is lethal the other half is stun. If the damage total was odd, the extra point goes to the lethal half.

 B: The target gets only half their SP. It is applied to the lethal damage first. If their armor stops all the lethal damage, the extra SP is applied against the stun damage.

 C: Subtract BTM (if you use BTM in your campaign). If any lethal damage is left, they get half their BTM (rounded down) against it. As usual, BTM cannot reduce lethal damage below 1. Any BTM points not applied to lethal damage go against the stun damage.

 D: At that point, roll a mortal check, if necessary, against the lethal damage total, roll a stun check once at the total damage level of the lethal plus stun damage. The stun damage is only temporary, however, and is not applied on their damage chart.

 

With this system, unarmored people will beat each other to death as quickly as in the normal rules, armored people won't take much lethal damage from fisticuffs unless the attacker has decent enough skill and a powerful enough attack but will stand a chance of being KOed.

 

For example, a guy with a cyberleg with thickened myomars, karate skill of 8, and a BT of 12 will do an average damage of 33 pts of damage with a kick. If he hits a guard with metal gear and a BT of 8, he does 17 lethal, 16 stun, - 12 for the metal gear = 5 lethal, 16 stun, -BTM = 4 lethal, 15 stun. So the guard doesn't need to make a mortal check, but needs to make a stun check at Stun -4 (for the 19 temporary damage). After this attack, 4 points of damage are applied to his damage record. If he had been hit in the head, the damage would have been doubled, so he'd have taken 8 lethal and would be dead/dying.

Simple, and seems to work out fine.

Japanese studios just don't have the budget to make action movies like we do in the west, but there are a lot of good Japanese comedies and horror out there - we just never see it in the West.  I lived in Japan for 3 years, however, and I got to see a lot of tv, movies, anime, and whatnot.  Yes, we do just tend to get the pretty good anime imported from Japan (rarely the best - where's Miyazaki when we need him?!).  There IS a ton of crap that we never see in the States.  So I'd agree that a lot of people who love anime and hate western style animation think it is better only because of a lack of real spectrum.  I saw crap that made the Rugrats look like the work of Michaelangelo.

I'd say I hate playing with munchkin GM's more than players - they make you feel like, as a player, you have to go munchkin just to survive, and it takes all the fun out of the game.

 

So what do you think is the reason WHY some formerly good GM's munchkinize?

 

I think some people who have played too many "RPG" video games get to thinking that's how a real RPG should be run, too - all hack and slash and the only bits of "roleplaying" being the PC's listening to speeches by bad guys.

Ok, I have to add a few points to this discussion.  While I myself have an autofire rule that makes guns more lethal, I don't have a problem with SP14 light armorjacks and other generic armors stopping small arms fire.  Armor in CP2020 is just better than armor of today.  SP14 will stop a .44 magnum (4D6 damage) on an average damage roll.  To people who want the .44 to penetrate a light armorjack, I say you're playing in the wrong system.

But then, realistically, in a world where it's easy to get armor that can stop normal small-arms fire, people who are trained killers or have to be able to defend themselves (Edgerunners, corps, cops, etc.) will use titanium, API, or other nasty rounds in better guns that are more often than not capable of full auto fire.  I'm not saying they'd walk around with 20mm cannons, but they'd get something capable of killing.  No one who's a real threat in my campaigns walks around with a 9mm pistol with regular ammo, and that makes sense - it just doesn't get the job done, and shouldn't.

So basically, my point is that YES, armor is better in CP2020 than today and is fully capable of stopping weapons that are a major threat to people in real life, but a lot of killer ammos and guns exist to counter it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, (and I don't have SoF2) but I thought KFF rounds were normal sized bullets that "open up" (so to speak) and inside the KFF fletchettes come out.  I figured they are "saboted" in that the normal bullet acts as a sort of sabot that breaks apart after leaving the barrel.

I have to agree, and add that almost any transformation or loss you have to your physcial body does some kind of damage to your psyche.  I mean, look at some vets that have lost limbs.  While a lot may adjust, some suffer a lot, and not just from post-traumatic stress disorder.  And even people who lose limbs or get prosthetics for other reasons suffer some from it.

When I was a kid, my best friend's father had a metal plate in his left arm from a vietnam war wound, and he obsessed over it as much as some cyberpsycho who unintentionally snicts in and out his wolvers.  I guarantee his Empathy was lower than when he went to war.

Bookwyrm, while I do think you should keep players on their toes, in trouble, and never rich, I don't mind tossing them some big scores sometimes so they feel they are actually progressing.  Buying more ammo, guns, and chrome (and recovering from wounds) keeps them poor.

No, I've done some math, thought it out, and I'm only changing one part of my rule.  Now, I'll allow any weapon with a base die of 4 or less to add 2D6 plus it's base plus on each extra torso hit.  So a 4D6+1 adds 2D6+1 per extra hit.  I'm leaving 5 and 6 D weapons at the extra 1D6 per hit, but also giving them the plus (if they have one) per die.  Do now 7.62mm guns do 1D6+2 extra per hit.  I think it conserves game play better.  In real play, I've found that 6D6+2 weapons still do more damage than smaller rounds, because they add so much on limb hits, and the littler weapons take a few extra hits to the torso just to catch up to their base damage.

My rules aren't supposed to be a representation of exact reality, but then neither are the base CP2020 rules.  If you use my rules, I think both you and your players will enjoy it a lot.  If you don't like them, just don't use them or modify them as you see fit.

I might get an arm, purely for the enhancement, or a set of legs, since my knees are shot from high school football, but I'd probably be more likely to get implants and biowear - skinweave, enhanced antibodies, and anything that would make me more durable and live longer.

If plastic surgury could do what cyberwear does in CP2020, yes I would.  I'd just settle with a cheaper car.

Ok, I'm thinking about it.  I guess my gut more than anything else has been fighting you, but you put up good arguments.  I'll do some more math, and play some more and then I may have 5 and 6D weapons add 2D6 on extra hits, but I still think limb hits shouldn't add.  "Aha!" You may say, "limbs ARE easily blown off in real life."  But I say in response, how many people in the history of gunfire who lost limbs actually were even wearing armor, much less armor of around SP14, 16, or even 20 on their limbs?  Possibly none.  With no armor, a 10mm or bigger takes out a limb on an average hit.  I know the stuff the army uses now is pretty damn good, but would even the best armors in use today have the CP equivalent of SP20, especially the limbs?

Yes, it may be expensive, but wouldn't you get one for 3 - 5000eb?  Or how about Skinweave, if it really could do what the game has it do?  Us (as players) talking about HL is fine, but people actually living in a CP world would have a much less well-defined idea of it.  Sure, you hear on the news that getting a lot of cyberwear can make people zombie-like and freak out.  But not me (says the average zoner saving his money up)!!  And besides, how cool would it be to feel no pain, move extra fast, have nightvision, or whatever.

Sick of the lame CP2020 costs for cyberwear?  After all, if a decked out cyberlimb only costs 3 to 5000 eb, why wouldn't everyone have one.

Just do this, have all cyberwear cost what it normally does at character creation, then x10 afterwards.  And to make characters have some incentive not to blow all their starting dough on chrome, I make vehicles cost x1/10 for starting characters only.

 

As a further to my character design process...

I'm big on character development, so I make it a rule that you can't start with a special ability over level 6 and any other skills over level 8.  I also give characters 66 attribute points to start, and they can have only one 10 or two 9's, the rest have a max of 8.  But of course, I use experience points instead of IP, and allow characters to raise attributes with experience.  If anyone cares, just make it so skills cost = the level you are going to in Exp (times the IP multiplier), abilities cost double that (or x4 if you want slower development).  Raising a skill or att over level 10 is possible, but costs double the Exp.  I then give out 5 to 12 Exp per mission, depending on how big it is and how well they perform.  Sure, it lets you develop only skills you want to develop, but since my games are more about roleplaying that combat, the characters develop in a more balanced method than a straight IP system gives.

Adding only 1 die per extra hit with big weapons and 2 for smaller weapons is to increase the threat of the rounds, while not increasing it to an absurd level.  Typically, people will only be hit with 3 or 4 rounds to the torso, tops, and a few more hits to the limbs when attacked on full auto and hit well, and in these cases and most others my system will make the gun do a good amount more damage, while not being insanely lethal.  These are all cases of shooting people with SP16 or more, and always using AP or similar AP effect ammos.  I've thought long and hard and been tempted to let 5 and 6 base dice weapons also add 2D6 per hit, but I don't know.

Oh, and why I don't let limb shots add damage is that that would produce way too many limb losses for me.  To Hell with reality, it makes a game unfun if limbs get blown off at the drop of a hat.  I wanted to make limb hits less threatening, without actually using some optional rule that divided limb damage by half (that I've seen floating around).  In my game, sometimes big dice rolls, melee weapons, or big guns blow off limbs.

Ok, you bring up the common argument against my system.  What could make autofire turn weaker (but usually fatter) rounds into effective weapons.

My system covers a lot of possibilities.

A) Rifle rounds have the inherent penetration, and possibility of over-penetration I talked about before - they will usually penetrate, doing damage, but may pass through and not confer all of their force onto the target.  Fatter rounds may not have the pop of a rifle round, but a clump of them could weaken and penetrate a section of armor, causing big damage but not necessarily reducing the overall SP of the garment.

Every armor piece has softer spots, weak points of flexibility.  With a bunch of shots hitting (for a big damage total), maybe only one of them actually did damage, but it did a lot because it hit a soft spot in the armor.  Again, this wouldn't reduce the armor's SP, since it only affected a small area.

C) People get punched for little or no real effect all the time, but if you got hit by a bunch of punches in an insanely small period of time, the overall force might cause broken ribs or other bruise damage that way exceeded what an individul punch does.  My system, like standard CP2020, never states that bullets have to penetrate to do damage.  Cops in real life get stung by bullets their vests stop completely.  CP armor is better than just kevlar vests often, but the sting could still happen.  And maybe you might not take any real damage from the impact of 1 bullet, but a burst could do enough to make you feel it.

 

I'm not saying you pick 1 of the above rationales and go with it.  I just give these examples as reasons why it isn't necessarily stupid to think a burst can do greater (or less)overall effect that the obvious sum of its parts.

Hmmm, the Crome book that has API ammo in it (1, I think), specifically says API and KFF won't work with ETE.  I guess then I should ask are there any others that don't work with ETE, and why?

I only have the 4 chromebooks and downloaded info of new ammo types, like Titanium, Tungsten Carbide, and Depleted Uranium.  Do any of these, or other new ammo types, work with guns with electrothernal enhancement?

I never thought multiple hits to a limb added together to determine limb destruction, so in your example, I'd say the two 7.62mm limb hits would result in two 6 pt hits, for a total of 12 damage but no limb loss.  As for the 10mm and 12mm doing more damage on a burst of 2 than on 2 separate hits, that's exactly what my rules were intended to do.  As more bullets hit with a smaller weapon to the torso, the overall damage is increased.  The 7.62 starts with a higher base, increasing less with each extra bullet.  In general, the 7.62mm will still do more damage, as it's limb hits will be effective while smaller guns will rarely do more than a point on a limb hit.

But I think focusing on non-AP rounds is kind of a moot point, since most people use AP (especially with my AP damage upgrade).

 

So let's figure results.  SP 14 armor and BTM of -3 vs two hits using AP ammo.

 

Torso hits:

7.62mm (26.5 - 10)/2 = 8.25 very hurt

5.56mm (21 - 10)/2 = 5.5 less ouch

12mm (22 - 10)/2 = 6 hurts

10mm (20 - 10)/2 = 5 ouchy

.177 (15 - 10)/2 = 2.5 no prob

 

Now two limb hits:

7.62mm (23 - 10)/2 = two hits of 6.5 = again 13 damage

5.56 mm (17.5 - 10)/2 = two hits of 3.75 more than before

12mm (15 - 10)/2 = two hits of 2.5 slightly less than before

10mm (10 - 10)/2 = two hits of 1 pt

.177 (11 - 10)/2 = two hits of 1 pt

 

Ok, now 3 torso hits:

7.62mm (30 - 10)/2 = 10

5.56mm (24.5 - 10)/2 = 7.25

12mm (29 - 10)/2 = 9.5

10mm (30 - 10)/2 = 10

.177 (22.5 - 10)/2 = 6.25

 

I don't see any major problems.  The 5.56 is a more penetrating round than the smaller pistol rounds, but is more likely to lose some of its damage because the round flies through the target.  The 7.62 has this problem, but it's bigger size causes a bigger wound.

 

Oh, and anyone who really thinks the Minigat would be a problem overestimates the number of rounds that will actually hit a foe in one area.  The .177 is more of a problem, but it still does so little damage that it isn't much of a problem.

The .177 is kind of an oddity in CP2020.  I'm not sure it's enough of a problem for me to want to change my rules for it, though.  But at least usually, 2 or more rounds of it must hit the same area to even do damage.  That'd limit it's effectiveness a lot.

Yeah, the damage stacking does have some effects that could be seen as loopholes.  I'm not sure exactly how to remedy possible failures without destroying the system, but the idea of a smaller round doing possibly more damage than a "bigger" rifle round doesn't cause me a lot of worry (for some cases).  Many modern rifle rounds, like the 5.56 may have a lot of penetration, but don't necessarily cause more tissue damage than big, fat pistol rounds.  They just travel too fast and aren't always able to expend all their energy inside the target, instead shooting right through.  With that in mind, I don't have a problem with a 12mm doing more damage when several rounds hit than a 5.56 or some of the other 5D6 damage rounds in CP2020.

House rules for CP2020.  This is an update and expansion of my previous post.  I think these rules work well as a group, especially, so try them out and tell me what you think.

 

Rule 1: Autofire modification.

In my rules, rather than calculate autofire hits as separate attacks for armor SP and BTM, hits to the same area count as one attack, with some restrictions.  Note: these rules ONLY apply to autofire, full-auto and bursts and never should be used for semi-auto attacks.

- Big guns (that do 5D6 or more damage) don't add much damage.  Multiple hits to limbs (including the head) should be calculated as separate hits, as per normal CP2020 rules. Each extra bullet to the torso adds 1D6 damage. So a 7.62mm rifle that hits a guy with three rounds in the torso and two in the right arm does one hit of 8D6+2 to the torso and two hits of 6D6+2 to the arm. The victim gets his armor SP and BTM ONCE against each of these three damage totals.

- Mid size guns (3D6 to 4D6 base dice) calculate limb shots as above, but now each extra hit to the torso adds 2D6 damage. So a 12mm SMG hitting the torso 3 times and the right arm twice does 8D6+1 to the torso and two hits of 4D6+1 to the arm.

- Small caliber guns (2D6 to 2D6+4) hit with a much greater cumulative effect. Again, limb hits do normal damage, but now extra torso hits add the bullet's full damage. So a 10mm SMG hitting the torso with 3 rounds and 2 to the right arm does 6D6+9 to the torso and two hits of 2D6+3 to the arm.

- Super small guns (under 2D6 damage dice), have an even greater penetration. Not only do they add full bullet damage on torso hits, they also add 1D6 damage on limb hits as well. So a Suranam MP (.177 explosive) hitting with 3 rounds to the torso and 2 to the right arm does one hit of 3D6+12 to the torso and one hit of 2D6+4 to the arm.

 

As some side notes to this system

- Fletchette weapons add the damage from all penetrators from ONE shot together to count as one attack, even to limbs and the head, but don't add any damage from multiple shots to the same area - treat each as a separate hit.

- Shotguns at short or medium range firing buckshot hit with D6/2 "hits" per attack that hits. At short range these all hit the same area.  Multiple torso hits are counted as one attack and add 2D6 damage per extra hit.  Limb hits are rolled as normal, separate attacks.  At medium roll for locations separately, with hits to the same area calculated as separate attacks.

- API rounds add 1D6 damage per round that causes any other damage (plus 1D6/2 damage the next round).  So if I hit with 3 API bullets to the torso and the victim takes damage from the base bullet attack, they then take an additional 3D6 damage.  This damage is added in, however, after the BTM was subtracted from the base damage total, so they don’t get BTM again.  API damage to the head IS doubled, however, burn damage from API rounds cannot cause limb or head loss.

 

Rule 2: Shooting around cover.

Standard CP2020 rules seem to assume you always try to shoot through cover.  In many cases, it would be easier to damage the foe by shooting around the utility pole, or whatever they’re hiding behind.  In each case, calculate the penalty to hit based on the percentage of the target’s body that is covered.  A miss is a miss – you were trying to shoot around the cover and don’t get a chance to shoot through it if you roll badly.  25% cover gives a -2, 50% a -4, 75% a -6, and 90% cover is a –8 to the attack roll.  Note: this is for shooting PAST cover.  If you don’t want these hit penalties, just shoot THROUGH the cover and use standard CP2020 rules.

 

Rule 3: No Staged Penetration.

To fit in with my autofire rules, you shouldn’t use staged penetration (losing 1SP per hit that penetrates). Multiple hits have a certain level of penetration calculated into the damage total above, but don’t reduce the overall SP of the armor.  Weapons like flamethrowers that normally damage armor 2SP per hit do this damage as usual.

 

Rule 4: AP round damage upgrade.

When hitting a foe with AP bullets, calculate damage as before, but you should subtract the victim’s BTM from the damage total BEFORE dividing by 2 to determine damage.

 

Rule 5: Initiative boosts and dodging.

In my rules, Speedwear gives a +3 to IN rolls and Kerenzikov gives +1 per level, period.  Boostmaster gives a +1 to REF while in use.  Other initiative boosting cyberwear proposed on the net doesn’t exist.

So a cybered up runner with a natural REF of 10, speedwear, boostmaster, and an adrenal booster can have a max REF of 12 and base initiative of 15 +1d10 when boosting.

Incoming ranged attacks would normally be at a –3 to hit this character for his high REF, but in my system, initiative boosting cyberwear now also gives a penalty to ranged attacks.  –2 to be hit for speedwear or –1 to be hit for each point of Kerenzikov.  So this runner with his boosted REF of 12 and speedwear is –5 to be hit.

Now, every character has a Dodge rating.  It is the maximum penalty they can cause their opponents to hit them in ranged combat.  So my example runner has a Dodge of 0 when unboosted or a 5 when fully boosting.

 

Rule 6: Increased called shot difficulty.

The penalty for called shots has been increased.  Hitting the head or vitals is now a –8 to your attack roll.  Limbs are at a –6, and the torso is the base –4.  Other smaller areas (eyes, fingers, etc.) would be at a –10.

 

Summation

If you take all my rules together, Cyberpunk is still the same world with the same overall system, but it has been tweaked, slightly.  With max REF stats just over 10 when boosting for most characters, runners are less likely to want to wear heavy armors with high EV penalties.  This, combined with a lot of people having Dodge ratings of 2 to 5, makes hitting a little more difficult.  Skill is also now way more important.  In Cyberpunk systems with average characters having over 12 REF, often a 2 or 3 skill in a weapon is still enough to make repeated called shots to the head.  Cover giving penalties to hit also makes people, wearing less armor, more likely to want to dive for cover.  And even small SMGs are now useful, making any booster with a gun a potential threat.  The overkill-or-nothing factor is gone.  In too many CP2020 games, massively armored runners and foes get to the point of toughness that most weapons aren’t even a threat – except for that dreaded head shot or attacks from Borg-scale weapons.  Finally, getting rid of staged penetration ends lame scavenging.  Now, you can run and gun, and get on with the mission without having to find replacement armor all the time, or stripping foes for their newer armor jackets.

I find that, overall, my rules lend themselves well to smaller weapons, more reliance on stealth than raw firepower, and using intelligence and tactics to try to avoid being hit, rather than just allowing your huge armor to ward off blows.  And isn’t that what Cyberpunk is supposed to be about?

I've thought about having a damage multiplier thing, too, let me know how it works out.

Oh, but I do have one piece of info you may want to hear.  Unlike most other bullets, the ballistics of .45 hollowpoint are almost identical to the regular round, since the regular is such a squat, wide round, it mushrooms for almost the same effect.  In game terms, I might say all .45 rounds are hp, but then it makes the gun useless in game play (since everyone wears armor), so why bother to use it?

Blackbagger was my first CP character.  He was a no-nonsense solo who carried a black gym bag with him and he used to pick up the guns of fallen foes and toss them in the bag.  Then he'd use the guns on future missions, never using a gun more than once.  So he always left a trail of other people's guns behind him.