Chromedome

I've used GURPS for Cyberpunk too. And for Cthulhupunk, which I thought it did really well. In fact, it's a solid choice. Lack of Humanity rules is only a problem if you think there need to be humanity loss rules.

But to this day I can't figure out how many points a cyberarm is worth.

And to get back on topic a little, what use outside of illegal hacking and programming more quickly do cyberdecks have? What possible reason is there for these things being on the open market?

 

I answered this, and was ignored... because I am chopped liver...

You answered sensibly, and other people went off on tangents. Including me. And the really wild part, you answered with much the same idea as I have about decks. It's basically a high end machine for gaming and social networking.

But nobody else seems to like that idea

See the book is actually very odd.

Now there's the understatement of the decade, where CP 2020 is concerned

Also look at your computer, it could be used to hack into a bank and steal a bunch of money. Yet you are allowed to own one. A gun could be used to kill some one, in fact it has little other use, yet you can buy one. The same idea applies to Decks. You could use them for hacking, but most people use them for just about everything else.

Which is much the same as I've been saying all along. Except, in the 2020 core book and the supplements I'm familiar with, there is no way to use a cyberdeck for anything other than hacking.

Even gaming is the province of Braindance setups.

Companies have Data Fortresses rather than web sites. People have Home Nodes rather than MyFace pages. A cyberdeck as presented in the core book doesn't even have the means to send or receive an email.

Honestly, I think the state of the Net is the biggest thing that consigned Cyberpunk to the history books.

And that said, you don't really need to do a huge amount to change things to make the Net relevant again. But you do need to change what decks are for. Because all the book presents them as is hacking machines.

9 times out of 10 I don't bother with maps. I ask, is it going to add anything to the action? If the answer comes up anything other than a firm Yes, I don't bother. I'd sooner spend the time drawing the map would take on designing an NPC or working out a nefarious scheme for the players to get tangled up in.

If a player asks, "Is there a such-and-such nearby?" then I get them to roll a D10. If it comes up lower than their current Luck, then yes, yes there is such a thing in your immediate environment. As long as the thing the player is asking about would reasonably be in the area, of course.

And if what the writers wrote matters so little to how it's played, why do you even care that the book says something? It's utterly unimportant, so change it.

 

In fact, I'm not even saying that to be belligerent or anything. if you have issues with anything in the book, remove it and put in what you want instead. NOBODY will stop you.

Somewhere along the line, this got sidetracked into rules discussion. The rules aren't an issue at all. Nor is the rest of the Netrunning chapter, really.

The initial purpose of the discussion was to ask the questions, what legal use is there for a cyberdeck, and why would they be on sale to the general public? Which is something the books never even touch on. And is also extremely relevant to my point about how the reality of how the net gets used on a day-to-day basis is radically different from the way Cyberpunk predicted it would be used.

There's no equivalent in 2020 of Amazon, or eBay, or Cragslist or any other form of online shopping. Online banking is hinted at, especially with the existence of things like personal credit transactors. There's a couple of mentions of online gaming, but they are buried away in obscure bits of the Chromebooks.

Why shouldn't a game that's supposed to be set the day after tomorrow reflect what we have today?

And to get back on topic a little, what use outside of illegal hacking and programming more quickly do cyberdecks have? What possible reason is there for these things being on the open market?

Except it isn't just for hacking and magic boxes. I mean, the book makes it clear you can use net terminals etc to check the news, read your mail, all kinds of stuff. They just don't have lots of rules and equipment and page space devoted to that sorta stuff.

 

Because this is a game about cyberpunks, hackers, edgerunners and gangsters.

Well, it tells you that. It also tells you that it's a game about revolution and sticking it to The Man. And really, it isn't. It's a game about shady entrepreneurs and borderline psychos making money by any means possible. Preferably by taking the corporate cash for some deniable but highly illegal and very profitable enterprise.

Or at least, that's how people seem to play it and that's the angle that later books in the line take. Books like Edgerunners Inc, Wildside and the Solo of Fortune pair encourage that kind of chasing the money in huge ways.

I mean, games devote more space to what they're about. This is why D&D has a whole lot of rules for how to kill monsters and take their stuff, and not a whole lot of rules on how to open a family friendly bakery and make good scones. That doesn't mean there's more Adventurers than Bakers in D&D, just that the trials and tribulations of establishing yourself as a legitimate baking enterprise in an over-saturated market is not the intent of the game.

By that logic, D&D 3.5 is about spells. I mean, about a third of the PHB is just endless lists of spells. And almost every single sourcebook has new spells in it. And it being a game of killing things and taking their stuff hinges on a narrow definition of a single word in the rules on gaining experience.

The thing is, more often than not, there's a world of difference between what the writer thought the game was about and the way people actually play it in the wild.

And it's why there's a whole lot of rules and words about how to hack your way into highly secure databases to steal valuable data, and not a whole lot of space devoted to how to check the tour schedule of Johnny Silverhand.

But there isn't. There's lots of space on how to navigate the Net and how to build a virtual reality, how easy it is for the phone company to trace all your activity and how you better pay your phone bill or else SOLOS WILL COME! And how to design Data Fortresses, too.

But there's very little on how to steal valuable data. Heck, the first options on your Menu are Locate and Control Remote. Those two commands take up one full column of the three that are dedicated to explaining what you can do with your deck. And there's 11 commands in all on that menu.

That's as many as I get when I right click on my desktop.

The problem is, the Netrunning parts of CP2020 are really showing their age. They were written at a time when most people didn't have a computer at home and when the internet as we know it today was very much in its infancy. This was around the same time as Steve Jackson Games were raided because they were working on GURPS Cyberpunk.

This game was written before Windows 3.1 came out.

I don't think it should be a huge deal to simply say that the "no cybermodem" clause that desk and lap top computers get in most 2020 materials can be errata'd away. And a legitimate reason for the commercial availability of cyberdecks shouldn't be a big deal.

After all, the way we use the net and the things we use it for in the real world are very different from the things 'Punk is designed to allow. Things we take for granted are literally impossible to do in CP 2020. Which is osmething that needs to be fixed. Preferably wihtout a page 1 rewrite of the system.

So why can you buy them in a bewildering variety of makes and models?

 

If you did buy the hacking-only idea, there's an answer to that question...

 

...why can you buy a bewildering variety of anti-tank rockets and light armoured vehicles? The Cyberpunk universe has dozens and dozens of paramilitary corporate/agency/cultural militia forces who need hackers for "legal" reasons. There's a lot of room for a competitive market!

I thought about that. The way the Net of 2020 seems to be designed exclusively to be used with these crazy expensive boxes plus some very expensive cybernetics makes that idea unlikely.

It's almost as if it was designed to be cool rather than to make sense...

I'm not missing the point. It's eugenics by genetic engineering, just like Khan was. It's a way that people who can afford the treatments can engineer themselves into a new super race, creating not just an economic underclass, but a biologically inferior one.

It's kind of scary when you stop to think about it.

A cyberdeck is a portable device geared heavily towards hacking, systems intrusion and data theft.

In other words, it's a device there is no legal use for. So why can you buy them in a bewildering variety of makes and models? And seemingly simply by walking in to a mall clinic to get the connection, which is only really useful for hacking and other illegal activities. And then going to the nearest Best Buy/Comet (depending which side of the Atlantic you're on) and getting this highly illegal device.

It doesn't make sense that something like this would be easily available to the general public.

Complete gene scans available for $1000. Also of interest are the identification of traits that provide benefits rather than just the focus on diseases.

 

I'm sure some will bewail the coming of the ability for small, compact scan units that can detect and sort genetics of passersby.

 

The notion of being able to use retroviral treatment to induce "unbreakable" bones and enhanced muscle growth along with leanness is intriguing as well

 

Talk on FORA.tv

Next step, Khan Noonien Singh.

Here's the problem with the way it's worded:

"A Stun/Shock roll can be recovered from by rolling a successful check in a subsequent turn. If successful, the character does not have to make another save for 1d6 Rounds x his Cool. Once medically treated, the character no longer has to make Stun saves unless he takes damage again."

The section I bolded appears to be a separate item from the sentence that comes before it. Of course, now you've clarified what you intended, it's all good and I know what you meant by the passage.

I've used the Savage for muggers and drop-you-in-one-blow martial artists. Bruce Lee at the end of The Big Boss (Fists of Fury in the US) could be written up as a Savage/Athlete character. He only needs to hit the bad guys once and they're out of action, and he faces down an entire gang. Jackie Chan in Police Story could be an Athlete/Savage, with the higher SA being Prowess.

 

No... in either case, both characters are most definitely martial artists, highly trained ones. Savage cannot be used with martial arts, only brawl melee... it states this clearly already, in several places in the core rules.

And the sad part is, I knew that about Rampage. Which was why I gave it to the Klingons in the Star Trek posergang in my Friday game. But when I glanced at it to remind myself what it does, I just kind of latched on to the add to melee damage part.

The mechanical effect is a character does nothing at all... they get no actions... for all intents and purposes a stunned character is out of combat, they are a liability and helpless. Describing them as being anything but unconscious is nothing more than flavor text for the GM. A GM might be more generous than I am, but that is for the individual GM to decide.

Hmmm. Tom Hanks at the end of Saving Private Ryan, all staggering with his ears ringing and eyes glassy makes more sense than sparked out cold on the floor. Especially if you can throw it off on a roll.

And no, recovering from a stun does not make you immune to stun saves if you take subsequent damage... and if your players are suggesting as much you have my permission to smack them with a rolled up copy of the rules.

You might want to reword "If successful, the character does not have to make another save for 1d6 Rounds x his Cool" in that case. No more Stun Saves is a valid reading of that, and was what made me think that it was an epic amount of time.

As for rules changes I am wrestling with... I am thinking of disallowing the Savage role in modern games. It was really meant to represent cavemen... but I feel in a modern setting its too prone to abuse.

 

I am thinking of limiting melee weapons specialties to 1 per character.

 

I am thinking of making weapon specialization off-limits to characters with Brawl Melee... since it pretty much goes completely against the "untrained" aspect that makes up the definition of brawl/melee...

I've used the Savage for muggers and drop-you-in-one-blow martial artists. Bruce Lee at the end of The Big Boss (Fists of Fury in the US) could be written up as a Savage/Athlete character. He only needs to hit the bad guys once and they're out of action, and he faces down an entire gang. Jackie Chan in Police Story could be an Athlete/Savage, with the higher SA being Prowess.

Also, the Savage is a pretty good Nomad Warrior analog, as seen in Neo Tribes.

I'd suggest one melee weapon speciality per two ranks of skill, increasing on the even numbers. That was, as a character improves his skill with martial arts, he learns more weapon forms. That way, a Master with a skill at 10 would know 5 weapons, while a beginner at 1 would know none. IME, most characters are likely to be in the 3-7 range, so between one and three weapons would be an average. Give a specialist a weapon every three levels instead of two.

And I hadn't noticed that Brawling/Melee allowed for weapons specialisation.

In some cases, a stun means you are knocked out, in other cases you are rolling around on the ground writhing in pain, in other cases you are in shock staggering around in a stupor. The actual effect was left open to GM interpretation, but the mechanical effect remains the same.

But what is the mechanical effect? My players can be demanding sometimes, and simply saying "You're out of the fight" is a little too vague for them.

If I was to put something on paper, I'd be inclined to go with something like,

"When your character fails a Stun Save, divide his/her Reflexes, Intelligence and Cool by 3. You can move up to 1 meter and may defend yourself as normal, with the appropriate penalties. You may not make Attacks or take any Actions other than a single Quick Action per round. If you fail a second Stun Save before recovering from your current condition, your character is knocked unconscious."

In fact, I might run that by my players next Friday.

Well, really the most you can get from 1d6 x cool is 3 minutes between cool saves, its not all that long... but it does give time for first aid checks to be made to stabilize. Of course in straight combat that's an eternity, but combat is rarely that straight.

 

Hmmm, I have always ruled that recovery takes a full round, I never felt the need to clarify it because it comes up so very rarely. But maybe when I eventually update again I might need to add some text to the core rules.

 

There are some other rules I am wrestling with changing as well...

When you've got people trying to throw off being Stunned the round after they start suffering from it, and then making the save, 1d6 x Cool is a HUGE amount of time. Especially if they get hit again, which should in theory force more saves, but doesn't due to this particular rules quirk.

Admittedly, I do have some players who think they are John McClane, so this kind of thing comes up fairly often. And I have another player who like to know the rules as well as he can. Usually in the good, I can get him to check up on stuff while handling something else with another play, way. If I've got somehting I can give to them before play, if the situation comes up again, that's 10 minutes of scrabbling through printouts and PDFs avoided.

As for any rules you're thinking of changing, I'd be interested in giving you feedback from the action movie gaming end of the spectrum on any ideas you might want feedback on.

Something came up in our Friday night game that prompted me to ask a question on here.

What's with Stun in IU? On the surface, it seems simple enough. You take enough damage to put you above the Light Wound State. Every time you take more damage, you then make another Stun Save. The text then goes on to say:

A failed roll means the character is out of combat. You can add the special effects yourself

Which seems to imply that the Stunned character is knocked to the ground. But what does being Stunned actually do to a character?

The other question that came up was about recovering from Stun. Again, here's the relevant bit of text:

A Stun/Shock roll can be recovered from by rolling a successful check in a subsequent turn. If successful, the character does not have to make another save for 1d6 Rounds x his Cool. Once medically treated, the character no longer has to make Stun saves unless he takes damage again.

Apart from 1d6 x Cool having the possibility for enormous amounts of time to pass before having to roll another check, can a character take an action on the same round as throwing off a Stun? For the sake of keeping the game moving, I ruled the recovery is a Full Action, but I thought a bit of clarification might be a good thing to ask about.

Which still doesn't answer the question I posed. Why can't my laptop have cybercontrols fitted? Literally everything else in 2020land can. It seems extremely archaic and not a little bit arbitrary that a computer can't.

 

My reasoning: You can. But, if you're gonna build something that uses mental interface... why waste space in the design for screens, keyboards and all that junk that the mental interface makes utterly pointless?

 

Why not just remove it, and use all that extra space and the ability to have a far more efficient design to, you know, squeeze in more computing power, make it more compact and then just sell that?

 

Voila. a Cyberdeck. A computer designed purely for the use of the DNI in mind. And, since DNI is SOOO superior to keyboards, every hacker and programmer worth his salt will be using it. Or anybody with a DNI to use, really.

 

And, well, since Cyberdecks is what you use if you have DNI, the guys making cybercontrols obviously tailor their new releases and products to the Cyberdeck chip and hardware architecture. In time, any cybercontrols you can get that works with your laptop will most likely be so old or so niche that, presuming they work with your DNI plug, they're still so outdated or unknown they're unlikely to work with any programs you're likely to be running on your desktop. Unless they're incredibly old too, obviously.

 

But then you're running outdated software on outdated hardware through an outdated interface, and you're now doing the equivalent of riding a horse driven carriage down the highway.

 

And then, of course, as time goes on, the demands for Cyberdecks over laptops in the hardcore net using crowd could lead to a shift in cybermodem design to one tailored to the hardware architecture of the deck.

 

In time, it could very well be that cybercontrol section of the net has a certain minimum hardware requirement, and that hardware has no support for laptop or desktop hardware architecture anymore. Because everybody who desires to use that particular functionality has DNI and uses a Cyberdeck instead.

So why are laptops and desktops still on the market in 2020land? Because you just described exactly why they shouldn't be.

The thing is, look at the way a basic phone costs $400. And this with no camera and no (apparent) capability to send texts or do anything that we would now consider normal with a phone. Computers and cyberdecks have the same problem. Quite simply, they got left behind by the real world.

AS I said in my OP, what is a cyberdeck, as described in the core rules of the game, for? Don't filter it through your modern day preconceptions. Don't compare it to your modern ideas about what the Net is for. What possible use, other than hacking, is a cyberdeck? And why can't I use a computer for it? Other than obvious issues of game balance. And even worse, there's something called a Terminal right there in the gear section of the 'Punk book. That turns your deck into a regular computer.

In other words, you can buy a keyboard and screen for a cyberdeck, using it to netrun at a -5 penalty. But you can't just netrun from a computer. It's as arbitrary as the "No more than three Rangers can work together" rule from AD&D.

What it really comes down to is two things.

1) Display

2) Interface

 

Laptops use a screen and keyboard.

 

Decks use a DNI and ... DNI?

What do cars, guns, heavy machinery and DataTerms all have in common with cyberdecks?

They can all be operated by DNI.

Why can't a computer be modified in the same way? Heck, what's the difference between a laptop, a dektop and a DataTerm? The restriction is basically a silly thing designed to force Netrunners into spending more money on their equipment than any other Role.

The point is that a laptop is just not equipped to handle the major net running. Remember in the Core Cp 2020 rules the only people who can hack are the Netrunners because they have the all important Menu function. Sure you can try to hack against a net runner without the ability to use the Menu function but that is like trying to fight a full Borg with brass knuckles. Strongly not advised.

That makes no sense at all. If the only people who can use the Menu are Netrunners, who exactly is using the Net? What are they using it for? And how can they be doing this without being able to use the Menu that lets them do things like locate and control remotes and run files? You may as well say that only Solos can fire a gun.

Yes, the Menu is stupid. Why are Locate and Control Remote considered primary functions? Especially as you need specific software to control those remotes. Why can I create, but not save a file? Why can I only read the table of contents of a file? Silly menu is silly.

So to run on a laptop vs a DNI is moving at the speed of fingers vs the speed of thought. It just ain't gonna work. And the reason that laptops are not fitted with DNI is probably an Operating System or software architecture thing. Like how you don't want to type your essay on your phone vs on your computer. Sure you can, but the guy on the computer is so many leaps and bound ahead of the phone guy that you might as well not even include Microsoft Word on a phone.

Which still doesn't answer the question I posed. Why can't my laptop have cybercontrols fitted? Literally everything else in 2020land can. It seems extremely archaic and not a little bit arbitrary that a computer can't.

The last paragraph on the left hand column.

I always read that to say "It's a model that sits on a table." Not a model the size of a table, which would probably weigh about as much a a 4x12 Marshall speaker cabinet and take two guys to move. Table literally meaning, it sits on a table and gets plugged in to access the Net.

Especially given the context of the paragraph a couple of lines up that says a standard deck is the size of a paperback and weighs about a pound. The thing about it being the size of a table seems to stand out as an abberation when compared to every other source to do with cyberdecks. Especially the artwork and the general sense of portability that goes with decks.

As for daisy chaining the laptop to a modem, you really don't need too. The modem has all of the power it needs to run the net. The laptop might just be some extra memory, but its CPU is often too weak to count as an additional unit. And for the price of the upper end laptops it might just be cheaper to upgrade your deck rather than buy a laptop.

I don't have the Rache Bartmoss books anymore, courtesy of a much regretted selling off of my collection about 15 years ago. But a quick skimming of Chromebooks 2 and 3 seems to peg an average laptop at around Int 3, 10-20 MU and 5-10 chip reader slots, costing less than 2500eb. An average deck seems to be about the same, but without the Int rating, and with a significantly higher price at 5-8k.

It's one of those things, like so many in 2020, that don't make any sense at all when you start to look at them closely. Why can't you fit cybercontrols to a computer? Why can't you use a computer to run the net? Sure, decks have an advantage in portability, especially when you get into cellular models. BUt shouldn't the bigger computers have somehting going for them as well?

Because if they don't, what's the point in them?

Technically the core book says two things within 3 paragraphs of each other. At first it says that the cheap 500eb deck is the size of a table. Then a few lines later it says that most decks are the size of a deck of playing cards (aka iPhone size).

I can't find that bit in my 2020 books. Could just be a blind spot of mine, though. I'm looking at pg133 in the revised edition where there's a couple of pictures and the mention of a deck being the size of a paperback book. There's a line about them being taken off the table and put on the street, though. That's the only physical description I've been able to find.

Really the major difference is laptops are keyboard interface and the deck can jack into your brain. So any programmer worth his weight in salt uses a deck just because it is soooo much faster to program with. And any gamer that plays anything better than Bejewled used a deck. And anyone who wants to search the real web, as compared to the filtered web, uses a deck. It is like the difference between watching a movie on your TV screen or being in the movie dodging bullets. The level of detail is just worlds above.

I never understood why you couldn't just take a laptop or workstation and plug a cybermodem into it. Or give it a neural interface. After all, if they can be made small and tough enough to fit on firearms and with enough speed and accuracy to handle all kinds of vehicles from cars and bikes to jet fighters and atmospheric reentry vehicles, why can't you work your computer with one?

It just makes sense. More processing power, multitasking ability and more memory. Why would any hardcore computer nerd use a deck as anything other than a portable system, with a much more powerful one in his mom's cellar? Or wherever he lives. Fridges seem to be a popular place for netrunners in my games.

While there are laptops and desktop computers these use the standard keyboard interface. The cyberdeck allows a Direct Neural Interface (plugs) or a trode-net. Also Cyberdecks hold a lot more memory and have a way better CPU.

Until you start getting into the Chromebooks. CB2 has the Microtech IIKL-4, with 40 MU and the ability to run 3 programs simultaneously. It's far more powerful than a cyberdeck, but it does have the throwaway line of "No you can't use this as a cybermodem, poser."

Obviously, decks aren't as powerful or versatile as "real" computers.

The Cyberdeck, on the other hand, has amazing CPU power, loads of memory. However the cheap cyberdecks are the size of school desks. The runner sits down, plugs in and dives into the net. Advanced versions probably have some form of life-support/monitoring.

The core book describes a deck as being the size of a paperback book. The pictures of the Zetatech Parraline 5750 shows something being held in the hand, with a few basic controls and a little tiny screen.

A small unit, minimal controls, basic ability to run software, but capable of running graphics intensive apps? Full connectivity, with an operating system that can handle more sophisticated programs than it may have been designed for?

To me, this is all sounding like a games console.

In the same way that the original Xbox, and presumably the 360 as well, could be modified to run Linux, it seems to me that the obvious legal use for a cyberdeck would be online gaming. Which is something there's no real way they could have predicted back in the late 80s, early 90s. Sure, there's hints, but they had no idea of things like PlayStation that were just around the corner.

But that's the legal use for decks as I see them.

Sometimes, games are funny things. We accept the existence of things in-game because, well because they are cool. Easy access to all kinds of illegal tech, guns, knives and bombs in a bewildering variety of styles. All sorts of things.

When it comes to netrunning, there's plenty of discussion of how to make it less tedious for everyone else in the room, hardware, software, the Net itself and all kinds of other stuff relating to the care and feeding of this Cyberpunk icon.

But nobody seems to ask the really obvious question: what is a cyberdeck for? I mean, you can't tell me you can walk into Best Buy and pick up this box that is made to run illegal programs and hack into corporate computers. That's just daft.

So I'm going to pose the question. What legal reasons for the existence of cyberdecks can you think if? After all, just getting online is easy with a computer. Why come up with this very limited capability thing that can only run a few applications?

Excellent, more people are following the Selloutica Metallica business model.

 

"Our products used to get us a fortune, but now nobody wants to buy them. Let's figure out who used to like us, and sue them."

Welcome to the world the Games Workshop way. Seriously, these guys spell Ork with a K so they can copyright it. I just wish the Tolkien Estate would pound them a new one for their use of the word Eldar, and Moorcock would assert his right to the eigth arrow chaos symbol.

Chrome answered most of your questions as well as I ever could, it almost makes me tear up with joy to see that...

And it almost warms my cold, electronic heart to see this...

Though I have to say, most of my suggestions come from playing with abusive munchkins over the years.

But to answer what appears to be your biggest issue, that of shooting at point blank range... in point blank situations I would actually allow blocks/dodges... not in the sense that you are dodging or blocking the bullet, but in the sense that you are preventing the gun from being pointed at you. I am not really a fan of Equilibrium's gun kata thing, but it definitely illustrated the concept. Of course any action movie where an enemy is holding a gun on the hero, and the hero knocks it away, or ducks under, or what not works just as well. It isn't "reality realism", but it is "cinematic realism"...

I've maintained for years that Cyberpunk is 80s action movie gaming. Starring Arnhuld and directed by Paul Verhofen. That said, I do have a recollection of one of those cheesy shows where they brag about how awesome martial artists are, and this (I want to say Israeli) guy demonstrated a disarming technique intended to be used when someone is pointing a gun at you, point blank and all up in your business.

What I would aim for is the kind of reality you'd see in a Bourne movie. So it feels grounded, but it really isn't.

Maybe someone can clarify exactly when a shot from the hip and a quick shot apply? That could solve the problem.

If you aren't taking time to aim properly, or are firing on the move. That's when those penalties should apply. If you're not making at least a Normal Action out of shooting is what I'd say. A Quick Action would imply simply snapping a shot off in the general direction of the bad guys.

Yeah did that, massive enemy losses ensued as the players would often win initiative and then gun down an enemy squad. My players liked using this tactic when they had equal or greater numbers so they could inflict massive enemy losses. Then an enemy moral check was called for as over half the squad was dead.

Yeah, that sounds like tactics to me. The only problem is, running into the middle of a bunch of people and not wiping them all out in one round is kind of suicidal.

Initiative is absolutely crucial in most iterations of Cyberpunk. If you've got it, you're likely to be able to take out the other guy and live to fight another day. But something to bear in mind is, holding actions. If the PCs don't get the jump, don't have the NPCs attack immediately. Let them hold their attacks, forcing the PCs out into the kill zone.

If the NPCs have the means, artillery support and/or airstrikes can be a nice surprise.

Try and start engagements at football pitch rather than tennis court distances, too. Three rounds of running into full auto fire won't encourage the kind of strategy your players are using.

And give the NPCs Motion Detectors, too. They used them in Aliens because it's easier to pick up people moving through close terrain like jungles and corridors with them. Not just because it was a handy bug finder. And don't tell the players until after the fight, obviously. That way, their surprise attack can be neatly turned against them.

If the players were outnumbered they ran away as fast as they could and stealth into the shadows. This was possible because I was playing a Vietnam style game with lots of trees and large leafed bushes. The players would keep to the back country and surprise the enemy patrols on the roads or when the enemy had set camp for the night.

Thermal Imaging doesn't care about trees, leafy bushes or shadows. it picks people out of the first one and sees right through the other two.

The biggest problem with 5.56 rifles and people wearing 20 armor is that most hits don't pen armor, even using degrading armor it took multiple hits in the same location to do any real damage to someone. That is when the players started using the point blank = max damage rule to just curb stomp the enemy.

Bludgeoning Damage is your friend. Sure, it heals fast, but for all intents and purposes, it's damage and causes all the problems that come with that. And soft armour lets one point per dice of damage through. So those 5.56 rifles are guaranteed to do 5 points of damage per hit against soft armour, 1 point against hard. And since BTM can't reduce damage taken below 1, it's surprising how quickly the damage racks up.

The basic scene went like this. Players stealth near an enemy camp. Taking cover behind trees and some nice thick bushes the players would aim and call shot to the head the first few enemies. The enemy not really knowing where the players were would try to suppress the general area, but the larger the area the easier the save, plus with the SP of the tree protecting the left half of their body the players were relatively safe (btw, the tree's have a typo of 90 SP, I dropped it to 10 SP) Then the players would either run away if too many enemies were shooting or would charge in and light them up. Enemy limbs went flying and the players would retreat before reinforcements could arrive.

Again, thermal imaging and motion detectors for the perimeter. Were the defenders using grenade launchers? If they were, indirect fire is always a good option. Also, player objectives are something to think about. Are they there just to cause chaos,or do they have something in mind? A reason for the attack, as it were.

Another thing to think about is dogs. Dog drones! Let' see them retreat from hunter-killer dogs, complete with cyberweapons, stealth tech, enhanced senses and built in missile weapons. Mythbusters made a good case for how hard it really is to ditch tracker dogs. Imagine trying to get away from dogs with Skinweave, cyberoptics and audio enhancements. Add in popup weapons and the doggy equivalent of Rippers and Vampires.

If it's important enough, go completely crazy with the search-and-capture (or destroy) mission. Tracker dogs with armed escorts, air support from heli or AV, complete with the ubiquitous thermal imaging. And even if you don't find the characters, how well protected is their base camp?

They tried to take over all of africa <snip>

I don't think they realise the scale of the problem here. Africa is vast. Africa is also filled with petty warlords trying to rally the whole continent to their cause of liberation. Africa also suffers from the fallout from 19th century Colonial policy of divide and conquer. One more band of opportunists isn't going to make any difference at all. And that's ignoring countries like Egypt and South Africa, which are fully modernised nations.

Think about it in these terms. The Sahara desert is the size of the United States and overs ten or eleven countries. Africa is the second largest continent on Earth. I don't see how a handful of punks stand any chance of taking over more land than they can directly control. And even then, taking is one thing and keeping is another.

Hypnotism/brainwashing skill. Reads "Hypnotism/Brainwashing - the ability to put another person into a trance, and cause them to be under your control." Ok this was getting abused so hard, my players were trying to brainwash half a city. I ruled that it was referring to stage magic not full blown mind control. Was I right?

Hypnotism is a tricky one. If it was that easy to mind control entire populations, the Corps would already be doing it. DRINK SMASH goes from an advertising line to being a command.

Movement speed per round. The movement rules say "Move up to your full Movement (3x your Movement Allowance In yards) per round. Actions (such as reloading, defending, or Combat Actions) made during the full movement are possible, but incur a –3 penalty. Or move up to 1yard and perform any other action." My players often had a 5 or 7 MA and could move 15 to 21 meters (49 to 68 feet) in a single 3.3 second round? That is half the long range of a pistol! All weapons with a 50 meter or less range were dropped as martial arts became the king of the field. Until my players discovered the point blank rules. (see below)

Let them take a single Quick Action if they use an all-out move. So they could snap off a single shot (don't forget the -3 for Firing While Running and the penalty for the other guy being a moving target) and not do much else. And Skinweave, of course. Skinweave plus a Uniware Trenchcoat for SP 22 is a classic bit of cheese for the defender. Add in a Dodge roll and return fire at Point Blank range.

You'll be amazed at how quickly players restrain their antics if you start using their tactics and similar equipment back at them. After all, why shouldn't an NPC fight as hard to live as a PC. Unless they're a suicidal nihilist, of course.

Point Blank Damage rule says "Point Blank: The weapon is very close to or in physical contact with the target. It will almost always hit, doing maximum damage." Max damage? (CP 2020 put very close at 1 meter or less) This coupled with the fact that players could move amazingly fast was used to instantly kill anyone. My players were moving up to an enemy and then unloading full auto at point blank, sure they don't get the +1 per 10 rounds to hit but that instant max damage led to enemies just exploding. Even the 5.56 assault rifles do 5d6 damage (30 max) so when the players move up and full auto (-3 for movement) they had to hit a DV 10 to hit at that range and for every bullet that hit the enemy took 30 damage. This blew through the flack vests and pants that the enemy had and limbs flew everywhere. Massive enemy losses ensued. Short of MetalGear enemies I did not see a way to fix this...

Full Auto is a Full Action. You can only move 1 yard and do this.

Another tip is, don't allow called shots when people are using bursts. Whether that is a three round or full auto burst. Sure, I bet there are people on this board who can group shots impressively closely together. BUt for game purposes, it's not a good idea to allow this, Otherwise you end up with the "Three round burst to the head" situation becoming the norm.

Also, check out Chromebook 1. There's some good, cheap armour in their. Flack vests and pants are ok, but they don't hold a candle to Gibson Battlegear or Uniware armour.

Martial Arts: Due to the early surge in martial arts I got really familiar with the MA rules. The most confusing part was

ATTACKER: REF+Skill+Bonuses/Penalties+1D10 VS.

DEFENDER: REF+Skill+Bonuses/Penalties+1D10

This coupled with that a person can dodge/block leads to the a bit of confusion. After about 20 minutes I realized that a defender can either use REF+Skill+Bonuses/Penalties+1D10 or his dodge/block ability (one free) to avoid attacks.

However, what if a person wants to dodge/block multiple attacks? Does his use his actions from the next round to increase the number of dodges/blocks he can get?

Using your normal actions to give you extra defenses is allowable, but don't forget the -3 to each and every action you take after you use up your allowance. Yes, this means kung-fu fights can get the full Jackie Chan treatment, complete with confusion about where you are in the turn sequence, but it also means that penalties are going to tend to be higher for the person going second if the guy going first takes multiple attacks.

Melee and firearms. Are there any penalties for using a ranged weapon (like a rifle) in melee combat? I could not find any, and once my players realized this those who lived by the fist died to those who didn't. (see the point blank rules above)

As far as I can tell, there aren't any rules, other than the type of Actions you can take in combat, that could be pertinent.

That said, those rules are highly pertinent. I'd be inclined to apply a Firing From the Hip penalty (-2) and use Weapon Concealability as a guideline for getting inside the reach of a weapon. If it became relevant. So a pistol in close combat is faster than a rifle. But not to the point of modifying Initiative, just as a kind of tie breaker.

So, how do I fix the problem that my players are just running up and full auto killing the enemies at point blank? I don't want to have to use Power Armored enemies to stop a simple 5.56 rifle.

To sum up, skinweave and decent (read better than the stuff in the 'Punk book) armour is a big step. But a bigger step is using the Combat Action rules from Interlock Unlimited. That really does nail down exactly what people can do in a combat round. It will put a stop to run and gun excess, while not actually preventing people from doing similar, but less abusive, tricks.

And finally, remember the words, "If you guys can do it, what's to stop the NPCs from doing it?"

Many years ago, when I let my players have pretty much any weapon or armor they wanted, I was lucky enough to have some more experienced players from another game system join in. Their characters were slaughtered by weaponry that my normal players simply ignored - after all, a 5d6 rifle round won't punch through SP18 armor plus Skinweave, but the more experienced players only had SP14 light armor and no skinweave. The game sucked, due to the fact that I wasn't really controlling the game, simply reacting to my players. I revamped the game, lowered the amount of firepower and armor to the point that a pistol became a weapon again, and suddenly games got interesting. Players tried talking their way out of trouble instead of just reacting with pray-and-spray full auto for every problem. The player that didn't want to learn, kept being faced with the consequences of his actions, like a huge price on his head from the police who had seen him kill several people on video - he eventually got to be the medtech's very first biosculpt, so he could show his (new) face in public.

SP 22 (18, plus 4 for the Skinweave layer) doesn't sound like a lot to me. Especially when you factor for armour piercing ammo. Or shotgun slugs. I mean, a 4d6 SMG is going to average what, 14 damage per hit. That's a point of damage a time even through that kind of armour. More if you're using shotgun slugs. On full auto, that's going to be characters needing hospital time at the least.

Here's what I see as the rub: Cyberpunk portrays itself as a violent, dangerous game. Here today, dead tomorrow. Live fast, die young, leave a highly augmented corpse. All that sort of thing. It also portrays itself as a subtle game of clashing social classes. Of glittering ivory towers and grime-filled back alleys.

And to me, that says that violence, when it comes, should be sudden and total. It should be a drive-by, an ambush or (as the core book describes) a claymore under a mattress.

Skinweave is nothing more than insurance against that. It isn't going to protect you against a Slice-and-Dice. It's going to be minimal use against Wolvers or Flechette ammo. BUt it will help with the road rash when you dive from your motorcycle onto the back of a speeding truck. It will give you a chance of surviving that random encounter with boosters. And it will mean that an unlucky roll won't leave you spending the rest of the session making a new character.

And honestly, the situation you described in your post isn't really anything to do with Skinweave. It seems to me more like the learning curve that you get from new players joining your group. Things get shaken up, old concepts get challenged and new ones get confronted. Eventually, a new level is found and you can get on with playing some 'Punk now that everyone knows the score.

I do find it interesting that the term 'arms race' keeps coming up. Because to me, an arms race would be a constant escalation of damage against armour. The players go for the old Uniware trenchcoat and skinweave, so theGM ups the stakes from pistols to shotguns and assault rifles. The players respond with getting hold of MetalGear. So the GM arms his NPCs with railguns and rocket launchers. Which in turn ends up with the players getting hold of some ACPA.

I prefer to let the players set the tone. I'll remind them to be sure to pick up weapons capable of beating their won armour, just in case they come against NPCs with similar gear. BUt I won't say "You can't have that item." It's much easier to say "No, I'm not allowing stuff from Home of the Brave or Neo Tribes and surgery costs apply during character creation" up front. If I was a player, I'd much prefer that over being put in the position of making a character, only to find that some things (but not others in the same book) have been banned or restricted.

Ok well that sorts out the timeline problem, thanks!

 

 

Maybe skinweave should be listed as military/police grade equipment. You know restrict access to it?

I would say, if you're going to restrict it, look at why you want to do so. And at what else should be restricted on the same basis.

Or just don't worry about it. It isn't that big a deal, really. It can be cracked by a large array of weapons that are easy to get hold of, after all. All it really is is a bit of a confidence boost for players.