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Posts posted by malek77

  1. Quote
    malek how can you possibly subscribe to memetic theory and creationism at the same time

    Hehe...well. A die-hard posthumanist christian on a cyberpunk site talking about a creationist god in one post at the same time as claiming cyborgs are an evolutionary step - and then talking about murder, death and pillaging in the next...




    But seriously - memetic theory is certainly plausible, and I believe its demonstrable. But it doesn't mean there is no objective truth, and it does as much damage to the worldwide faith in Evolution as it does to chanting choir boys.


    If you believe in evolution or god, and never question the belief, then you're a memetic victim. Questioning is painful, but it's honest. It's stating that you believe reality should have an impact on your thinking. Whatever reality is.


    Just believing what you want to believe has the interesting effect of making you a useless lump of flesh, destined to die uncomfortably. I know people who fit this description perfectly - and I hate their blindness. 80% believe in Evolution, 20% don't believe in anything. Hence I get riled up at meme infested people accusing me of things they don't think about...arrogant little thing, aren't I?


    Oh yeah - communication evolving and the idea of evolving meme's - I'm perfectly cool with them.

    There is intelligence of some sort behind each, allowing the user to determine what will be valuable in future and implement it. Totally unlike a cell getting randomly nuked.


    the fact that it is demonstratable (for example, using fruit flies)

    Really? Got a link for that? Cos if its just someone nuking fruit flies and they get 4 wings or something...that's just misusing genes the fruit flies already have.

    Unless they've got nice empirical evidence that the flies are using a gene they didn't have before...


    But natural selection is a part of evolution.  

    Yeah - I know the basic idea. Random mutation occurs, weak mutations are weeded out, new version outbreeds the others.


    But natural selection IS NOT evolution.


    ev·o·lu·tion   Pronunciation Key  (v-lshn, v-)


    A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. See Synonyms at development.



    "...more complex...form."


    That is the crux of the issue. How does the DNA get more complex?


    I don't see a functional process. I see eponentially increasing difficulty from a very shaky idea - that DNA could just randomly form in a puddle and get more complex.


    nearly all humans produce melanin, albinos are an exception)

    According to an article I read awhile ago it said something along the lines of '...all humans produce the same amount of melanin, but its bound up in 'white people' and dispersed more in those with darker skins.'


    there are also copying errors and I seem to recall reading about how remnants of viruses (virii?) had also been found in our DNA.

    I'll have to have a look at this. Links would be appreciated...:)


    I prefer to think of it as being constantly refined in light of new evidence, after all, we didn't have some omnipotent being to write it all down for us!

    Yegods...if only some more people were aware of this...we wouldn't have to debate it so virulently.:D


    Tell me...how convinced are you of evolution? Is there any doubt? Are you open to new theories (assuming sufficient basis, of course)?


    can we insert a disclaimer in here that unless specifically stated we're talking about known forms of life?

    Ok. Cool. :D. I was just whinging...which reminds me (and this is a good starter for the young Earth stuff) about that idea a while ago that the Martian geological formations were caused by gigantic floods - on  a planet we've yet to find liquid water on, and some people pooh-pooh the idea of a flood on Earth even when we have *way* enough water to cover everything, assuming a sufficiently cataclysmic submersion of land masses. More on young Earth soon..


    So tell me, why is your holy book any truer than the rest?

    This is one I'm still thinking about. For instance, I used to think there was so much similarity between the Bible and the Koran they might be both true...but that was recently knocked out of me when I find that the koran is similar in the way a movie based on a book is - lots different.

    The Koran is actually much less detailed, and contains some rather wild passages about killing the infidel and beating your recalcitrant wife.

    Unlike the good old Bible, where it's more along the lines of "The husband owns the wife, and the wife owns the husband...they are one flesh". Wierd how many people forget the second bit.


    Or there's Hindu, which has as many wild idea's and stories as an average chat with me. It falls into the 'meme only' category for me...though I like some of the ideas...


    Zen is, well, zen. In a paragraph - "sit down, chill out, and don't make any comments. It's all good." Relaxing, but not a good explanation of anything.


    Then there's the massively factional nature of the so-called 'Christian Church.'

    The Church is not a little white building with a cross, the Church is the body of Christ.

    Christians compose this body...(1 Corinthians 12:27 - Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.  )


    So what defines a Christian?

    John 6:28-29

    "They then said, What are we to do that we may [habitually] be working the works of God? - What are we to do to carry out what God requires?

    Jesus replied, This is the work(service) that God asks of you, that you believe in the One Whom He has sent - that you cleave to, trust, rely on and have faith in His Messenger."


    So it's belief in Jesus. (Which is a problem for JW's! Because he claims to be the son of God...& they think he's just a prophet or something).

    So if I believe him, I'm believing what he says?

    He says stuff from Genesis...ergo...Genesis is to be believed?


    That's the Biblical end of things. So if Genesis is true, and assuming God hasn't created the world as a cosmic joke to test our faith by making it look like we evolved, there should be some reason for beleiving it...right?


    To answer your question - I'm believing, in principle, the Bible, while looking for confirmation. It's (almost - no apocrypha) the same bible as the Catholics, the Orthodox, the JW's use - I'm just believing what it says and not using it as a memetic tool to control people. I'm looking at it as a potentially accurate historical record, that will stand up to analysis.


    So I analyse. When not thinking about wolvers or I/G algorithms...




    I'll stop here. Next post, the Young Earth debate starts...

  2. Aside from the obvious 3 - Blade runner, Akira and Ghost in the shell...


    Bubblegum Crisis 2040? (Not a movie - but I have 12 hours of it!)


    How about Patlabor mobile police I & II?


    They're so incredibly real...I love 'em. They're certainly not cybered up...but the whole machinery concept is very CP.


    Punk for adults, prolly...

  3. Aside from the obvious 3 - Blade runner, Akira and Ghost in the shell...


    Bubblegum Crisis 2040? (Not a movie - but I have 12 hours of it!)


    How about Patlabor mobile police I & II?


    They're so incredibly real...I love 'em. They're certainly not cybered up...but the whole machinery concept is very CP.


    Punk for adults, prolly...

  4. Jase, half crouched, is looking past Yoko into the room he can see...shotgun ready to drop to fire into the room if Yoko suddenly dives for cover...

  5. I love the news when IMF meetings are on.


    There's lots of shots of huge, black-armoured riot cops bashing up hippies...


    I was thinking...the cops never seem to do so well. They can't actually get rid of the crowd - what's the best anti-mass-of-humanity-weapon appropriate for riot cops?


    How about a real, honest to Alexander, Phalanx?

    A block of men with shields and long pole-arm style tasers to drive the crowd back.


    Call it the 'Hoplite' system, and have them nearly bullet proof, EV of -3 and tasers about 4 metres long, backed up by an EMP rifle wielding marksman to knock out borgs or camera crews. ("Wot? The camera don't work! This is the biggest story since..."*bzzt* *bzzt* )


    ...just think how cool it would look, specially if  you gave them big helmet-crop/comb things. To put a camera in, of course...

  6. Quote
    . I really can't see how anyone can sit there and deny evolution as a real element of the world becuase it's so completely evident that you would have to be a complete moron not to realize it.


    Oh dear Tekxombie...the meme has you by your throat.

    Fight! Think! Confirm!

    Just because the prevailing worldview is 'Evolution is true' it doesn't *make* it true.


    Flat earth was totally, absolutely true for a long time. (& supported by various groups who had a vested interest in maintaining it...much like there are many vested interests in maintaining evolution as a truth now.

    Look who would look silly if the theory blew up?

    Lots of 'scientists', most of the media, university's...)


    And you're simply attacking my intellect with that - not the theory. C'mon - if you want me take Evolutionists seriously you've gotta be better than that...:p


    Beside - & I quote Richard Dawkins...

    "Like computer viruses, successful mind viruses will tend to be hard for their victims to detect...

    1. The patient typically finds himself impelled by some deep, inner conviction that something is true, or right, or virtuous: a conviction that doesn't seem to owe anything to evidence or reason, but which, nevertheless, he feels as totally compelling and convincing. We doctors refer to such a belief as ``faith.''


    I refer to it as Evolution. :D



    a)Can you confirm that evolution has occurred?

    b)can you confirm Creation did not occur?




    Yes - there are young Earth theories. It places Earth at abt 6,000 years old.


    A lot of it comes from flood evidences (as a way of confirming the historical accuracy of the bible - which does darn well, thankyou...) and real, observed erosion rates - not the theoretical ones that fit with the billions of years.


    (More on this later when I find some links...)



    You do see people who are adapted to their environment

    Yes - that's natural selection. No problem.

    BUT - it *IS NOT* evolution because no new information has been gained. All humans can produce melanin...those who make more survive better. But it isn't a prelude to speciation...its a loss or disuse of information.


    It is not more information...and if you have no way of gaining new information, you absolutely cannot evolve.


    DNA takes input in the form of mixing chromosomes, then processing it into a body - which is the output.


    The DNA doesn't have other inputs I am aware of - this is where the 'magic' of the Evolutionary theory comes in.

    The completely undefined way DNA gets more information.


    The magical radiation particle that is normally responsible for evolution produces cancer. Which kills the organism.


    Also ever noticed that our magic particle had better hit a reproductive cell? It's no good having an evolved skin cell that's just gonna fall off...


    About the people evolving to handle space...

    Despite the semi-humourous nature of that, the point was :


    Evolution as an unguided process cannot pre-emptively decide where it wants to go...space or onto land.


    Anything it evolves has to be an advantage in the current environment...anything else is superfluous.

    Ergo - the ability to survive out of water for a while isn't going to be there.


    So how can you get your fish out of the water? You have to develop multi purpose things...which doubles the complexity of what you have to evolve...and the change has to go in the right reproductive cell, which has to be the one passed on, which has to then provide a survival advantage to the offspring.


    Pretty astronomical for a fish to just get thicker scales, hey?


    Besides, what makes going up on land a good idea?

    Nothing else has evolved to live up there yet...nothing to eat...nothing to do...boring :D


    It is perhaps humanocentric arrogance that assumes that an AI would 'want' a physical anthropomorpic representation

    Good point. The incoming data, representing reality for an AI would be the same (bits) whether online or from a 'body'...it's possible we assume they only want a body cos we'd feel strange and disjointed if we didn't have one.

    (Incidentally, its the same for us...but we're used to what we live in and make assumptions about it...)


    Dont forget thought that DNA is not vital to survival of all life

    Hooray! Think how many times you hear crap about water being an essential to the development of life. If any planet has water, the assumption life is possible there immediately follows...

    If evolution is plausible, then there are trillions of other possibilities for what it could look like.

    Silicon based life at least.


    There are so many assumptions about evolution...it is just such an unco-ordinated idea. How an unco-ordinated constantly changing idea can be true I don't know...



    ...and Finally - if you take the Bible as literal truth, it is entirely incompatible with Evolution. Particularly in the area of Genesis, which underpins everything else.

    If you want to believe Evolution, the bible is just a morality play, and has no further power.

  7. Whoa...wild stuff. I like it.

    Rather depressing though...


    I've always seen CP as a dark transition to the glittering starship filled future...the vignettes are very 1984ish.


    It also comes up with some hefty corporate points of view - something I've not seen a lot of. Kewl.


    Good stuff - thanks for pointing it out.

  8. LoL...I believe cyborgs are the only evolutionary step we've ever seen. Increased survivability despite biological frailty...:)


    (I'm a posthumanist & a Christian...wierd, huh.)


    The general vibe from the posts so far is that evolution is possible with some kind've intelligence guiding it.


    I agree. Intelligence can decide on what an improvement would be, and then seek ways to implement it...so yes, I believe mankind could evolve now, because we have the technology and knowledge to start.


    However - blind chance isn't intelligent guidance. Aside from the mind-blowingly astronomical chances against us evolving, at whatever pace - I don't think evolution would produce what we see today...


    The biggest thing I have against that is when a step is too big to be overcome...like turning a fish into something that can breath air. Think of the changes necessary - new lungs, new form of transport, and a damn good reason to go up on shore. If it's too feed...on what? What's evolved already to live up there, and what drove it there?


    For the fish to change like that, the minute changes have to be 'confirmed' by the fish having increased survival characteristics...and until all of them are in place, they are of no use. They are an expense - a strange mutation out of place in the current environment.


    We don't see people with partially functional ability to survive zero-g, zero-pressure and wierd temperatures just becuase space is out there and drawing us toward it.


    Wouldn't the leap from sea to land be just as big as that jump for a primeval fish?

  9. Wow! I never did hear of that shadow gov't idea before.

    Any suggestions on where I'd find more about it?


    It looks to me an interesting little setup if it could be infiltrated...a perfect way to start the 2nd American civil war...you'd just have to prove to the shadow gov't the current ruling body was corrupt, and that they were about to pull off some big 1984'ish move...then drag the 'Southern rebels' in as muscle and some hackers for the data equivalent of air-support. Kewl.

  10. Jase spins his mental map, looking at what path he can take up to the target - without being directly in someone's line of fire...unless this is all a huge setup...


    <Shuttup. Just do it.> he thinks.

  11. Is a cyborg what you'd consider the next evolutionary step?


    They certainly seem like they'd survive better, live longer...but not breed nearly half as well. (At least CP ones - Mr.Stud doesn't seem to improve the chances of conception!)

  12. While this site is hardly the place for theological/scientific discussion, it's become apparent there is disagreement between various members about the origins of life on Earth.


    This is the place to discuss it.


    Bookwyrm and myself would like to see it go ahead in a sane manner - insults about "heathens" or "bible-bashers" should be avoided. You can refer, but not accuse...


    There is also the point that Evolution is an important element of Cyberpunk - it is a time in which we face the possibility of mankind splitting into the fitter and the less-fit...with the subsequent annhilation by outbreeding of the weaker.


    Is a cyborg an evolutionary step - or merely transitional...perhaps even a dead end?


    Also - speaking from experience - trying to prove or disprove the existence of God will go nowhere but down, towards the question "Why is there something, rather than nothing at all?".


    I don't think we'll find the answer to that one here...so lets keep it scientific, philosophical and polite - and in the realms of the evidences for and against Creation and Evolution.


    (:Bows and gets off stage...: :D)

  13. To use Suriel's big word - the idea that evolution is scientific is a syllogism. :D


    Scientists say evolution is true, thus evolution must be scientific. *Hmrmmm,grmble,grr..mmhrrr*




    It is a theory. & I'm quite happy to live with it as that, but it gets treated as fact and has been used as an excuse for all sorts of terrible things. (Much like christianity!)


    What I'm suggesting here is that there is a meme here - the meme of Evolution being scientific and true, and the meme that Religion and repetitive practices will get you life eternal.


    Both are meme's, and are of no value beyond controlling people.


    The fight to destroy Christianity by the 'scientificness' of Evolution is another Religious war...


    ...sorry I'm running off the thread again.


    Ok - I'll throw this out - if, and only if, other people are actually interested in going through the concept of Evolution VS Creation - I'll start and thread and we can talk it out in a sane and scientific manner.


    btw, I won't use a verse alone as an answer to things...I understand the tricky nature of these debates, and the implications etc...tell me if you're interested...





    on topic :


    Interesting uses of religion :


    I was using a drug in a story a while ago called 'BluFish'. The dealers had an advertising ploy that it was something to do with an ocean-demi-god like Gaia.

    This 'great BluFish' would rise again to restore the Earth to its pristine original state, and that by taking the drug you were somehow part of his plan.

    The other thing was, it gave a sort of religious fanaticism to the addict, thus he'd protect his supply.

    It also made you paranoid...


    AI's in the net would certainly seem godlike, especially with their power to control your perception of their universe.

    Cult's led by AI would certainly make a lot of sense...and they'd prolly even be benevolent.

    I have a rather manipulative but benevolent AI practically owning a clique of high-powered business people...he 'owns' them because he improved them by a drug based retraining program...


    The Inquisition...the original was to root out heresy like the Lutherans. Might not the 2020 version be a splinter of the Catholic empire, fighting to return Catholicism to the old ways, against the creeping excesses of universal acceptance?

    It actually looks even today that the Catholic church is trying to fuse, or at least accept, other religions *now*- may soon actually begin to merge?


    Might we get another split - the Holy Roman Emperor VS the Pope? (this has historical precedent!)


    Like Vodun, and how it merged catholicism and tribal beliefs.


    Imagine the edgerunners - hired by a bunch of monks.

    It would make for a great 'Illuminati' style game, with secret symbols and arcane books of knowledge as prizes.

    (Rosicrucians want their book back, the Inquisition wants to burn it...) Cthulhu punk could come in handy here...



  14. ...must...not...argue.... :sweats:


    Um - Natural selection is demostrable...the gaining of new more complex information is not.


    Here's a link...I'll warn you that it is very pro-Genesis, and you mightn't like that - but at least look at the rest of the theories...




    Maybe if this is a hot topic...we should bring it up elsewhere?

    It has big implications for the CP world...there seems to be something in the air about Cyberpunk that man is about to evolve. And I certainly agree that it's a Darwinian universe.


    (& I don't hate people who disagree with me...it just gets frustrating.)


    Which is kinda the point of this thread?

    Christianity gets an incredible amount of bad press, and its public representative are just such bad examples.


    I'll go and stick my foot in it here too...Catholicism is just not Christian. They pray to Mary - & you're not supposed to. They repeat the lords prayer - which is explicitly spoken against (about) two verse later. They've given up on the debate about Evolution VS Creation. And their history with the Jesuits, the Conquistadores, the Inquisition...


    They're just wrong. And that's probably why they'll survive as an organisation - they're pragmatic enough to move with the times and take advantage of the situation.


    What this means is that people who want to get closer to the Biblical version don't look for God in a church. They get their research materials and figure it out at home, for themselves.

    I've seen this happen to my own family and numerous others - with the result that anything that calls itself a 'Church' I immediately run screaming from. I don't need their feel good 'power of positive thinking' crap...& it's entirely un-Biblical.


    & I hate the idea of faith - which is why I find evolutionists so funny. They laugh at faith, when they believe to the utmost a constantly changing theory with minimal basis, as opposed to people who believe they feel the working of God in their lives...and can normally show *some* result. (granted - it doesn't make for conclusive proof)


    It's all a lot of fuzz and nonsense to me (christian or evolutionist)- I hate the idea of having faith in anything. I'm something of a solipsist...I think.


    But I do believe in God. And Jesus. Mostly because I was trained that way, and 2ndly because nothing else has so far been able to bring it down. Try if you like. I will actually seek out the challenges to my belief...


    I'm probably a prototype die-hard Christian sort the 2020's?

  15. As a Christian myself...I think CP falls into the 'end-times' category...there are some very CP things in Revelation.


    From my side of the fence - I think religion is going to do 2 things - there will be big, wierd feelgood tele-evangelism style things incorporating all religions into one big smush.


    I think catholicism is moving that way now.


    Then there'll be the die hards doing the church thing at home, avoiding trouble and generally being peaceable...because I don't think they'll be very popular.


    You don't want to get in bother for accidentally pointing out that all creationists are retarded, for instance


    No, you don't Gringoleader. You've just stuck your foot in it big time. You've got about 30 seconds to make disclaimers, or start laying out exactly what you believe and why...I am *SO TIRED* of evolutionists and athiest making the assumption we're a)wrong b)self delusional.


    If you had any real reason for saying that - I'd like to see the reason.


    In the meantime, I'll say "Show me an Evolutionist, and I'll show you someone who has more faith in the impossible than *any* Christian *EVER*."


    (& I promise to stay polite from now on...:D)

  16. Yeah - I'm interested.


    It actually sounds like either Robotech or Macross...


    But can I just critique the plot so far a bit...um...if technology is really highly advanced and so on, that kind of cryo disaster seems a bit, well - *too* disastrous. Unless its enemy action.


    What if for tension, you just had something like a 'sleeper team' on board that takes over the ship on their shift, and its something between ESA and NASA or Orbital air - all trying to capture this new planet for themselves..& they haven't been warming up potential rivals properly...so it becomes a fight on ship to wake up enough people on your side to compete with the others and planet-fall is a prelude to competing colonies...


    btw - is the planet livable? Or just a bit out of Earth-normal range, and could 'easily' be fixed with some terraforming?

  17. Yeah - I'm interested.


    It actually sounds like either Robotech or Macross...


    But can I just critique the plot so far a bit...um...if technology is really highly advanced and so on, that kind of cryo disaster seems a bit, well - *too* disastrous. Unless its enemy action.


    What if for tension, you just had something like a 'sleeper team' on board that takes over the ship on their shift, and its something between ESA and NASA or Orbital air - all trying to capture this new planet for themselves..& they haven't been warming up potential rivals properly...so it becomes a fight on ship to wake up enough people on your side to compete with the others and planet-fall is a prelude to competing colonies...


    btw - is the planet livable? Or just a bit out of Earth-normal range, and could 'easily' be fixed with some terraforming?

  18. Jase is 24 and he's done military time before becoming a Cop, so he's probably pretty new. ish.


    He's always wanted to be a SWAT officer...


    ...& nitewolf can do what she likes.

    But I have to wonder how we'd react if a male character did something similar with his 'equipment.'

    (Sorry about the appalling mental image there...:D)


    What it makes me think of is whats-her-name from Ghost in the Shell, and that early scene where she strips on the rooftop.


    But just give us an idea of how to handle it, nitewolf? Is she trying to get someone's attention? Or are you just making the point she's either a flirt or just 'open minded'?


    (oh yeah - Jase would like to know what Yoko's ATTR stat is...he's a 7 - :p)

  19. ...I managed to have a 30's style jazz band in something I wrote the other day...that worked. It makes me think of the bar scene in BladeRunner.


    Tango is good...


    I saw Michael Franti today live in Newcastle - this guy in his group called 'Radio-active' (kewl) did a human beatbox thing that gave me the idea of a cybernetic instrument...


    What if you could jack yourself into speakers and 'think' whatever noise you wanted to come out?


    How cool would that be - the effects and the modulation would be awesome. Total live music.


    Whaddya think?


    (& tell us more about you're Corp music...)

  20. "Samson - do we need the ladders for any reason?

    I'm not lumping them around if I don't..."


    Jase is edging forward on his seat, rearing to go. He repeatedly makes sure his smartgun plug is firmly jacked in...he seems a bit nervous it might fall out.


    All thought of picking on Brandon is fading as the promise of the hunt begins to pump adrenaline into his blood...

  21. Just a hint of cat or something would be awesome. I think that's the *much* better way of thinking of things!



    btw - there's some guy in a  freak show circus in Oz called the 'Jim Rose circus' and he has horns.


    He's had two circular plugs of coral put in his skull, and they grow on the bone, and he's sanding them into horn shapes.


    The other cool thing is that he has feeling in the bottom of them...

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