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zazq

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  1. It IS the job of the weapon and armor lists to keep the story going. This is because this is the only job there is. The only thing any subset of the rules does is keep the story going. If it doesn't, then it is useless. Yall have convinced me that my gripe isn't with the weapons. The availability system makes them fine. IT also makes them support the story. Players want their characters to have better guns. This want is motivation to play the game, progress the story, get paid, make enemies. The gun lists make the story better. so the topic of the thread should have been "does armor balance matter?" where we discuss ways to make the armor help the story. Being bullet-immune isn't helping the story, but keeping unlucky shots from acing characters does. The armor should make the guns already available fear inspiring but not deadly. Out of the various confusion of this thread some useful hits have come out, namely that staged armor penetration thing, where hits reduce SP even if they don't penetrate. I don't know if that's all the house rule i need to make the SP22 sexy trench coats start helping the story, but it might be. I suspect it'll take some other mechanic to also reduce the total SP being worn about, but that's still up for debate. But to say again what you might have missed, in-game 'penalties' to doing stuff are a poor way of enforcing game balance. This is because police attention is not a punishment to the player, its a reward for making a character so damn scary that the police follow him around. If the in-game inteventions get so severe that they kill the character, well that's not helping the story anymore, and so should be avoided. Thus in-game penalties for actions are nothing but good until they stop being good. There is no point on this line where they prevent players from breaking the game. Keeping game balance (and thus protecting the story) is the only thing the rules system is useful for. I'm not against house ruling the current armor system into oblivion if it really needs it, but i suspect that a well thought out house rule or two can just fix the whole thing. So instead of boasting of your 10 years of experience, show me what you know from it. Do you have a house rule for this? why/why not? Is staged penetration all i need?
  2. Senior officer Mikael van Atta, your sass is of no use. I'm not refusing your help, nor am I ignoring what you say. I'm shopping for the best solution, and many have been provided. You seem upset that i'm not just taking your word like that of god. As GM i know that i can manipulate my world to my whims, and throw out and change anything i want, but doing so willy nilly is never the solution to any problem. When one or two, well thought out, house rules can fix the problem and open up a huge range of weaponry for our players, than that is the right thing to do. I managed to go home and come back and not read the availability rules, so i still don't know if they are what i want. If poor availability weapons are unheard of in the hands of unnamed thugs, than that pretty much solves the weapon damage issue right there. It's a mechanical fix to a mechanical problem, and lets us use all the weapons from all the supplements without fear of unbalance. The best E or C pistols and rifles from any book anywhere are the ones in the core rule book. (which is good) It looks like armor is going to actually require a house rule. Now that everyone and their grandmas do 15 damage per hit, than having armor in the SP14 range be the most common is the mathematically correct answer. Normal ammo does damage on average rolls, with high damage rolls causing limbs to go flying. Dangerous enough so that they fear getting caught out in the open, but safe enough that they'll survive if they do. So is slapping on massive EV penalties to any armor higher than SP14 the correct way to design this house rule? Will it do what I want without doing what i don't want or breaking other things? Does anyone already have a house rule that does a similar thing and does it very well? The chewing up people's armor with an SMG rules might be of use, but would change the value that I want to start applying EV penalties. Many of you are suggesting in-game solutions to what is a problem in the mechanics. This is never the correct approach. Having a character hunted by the law because the dirty dirty assault rifle he carries was used in a murder earlier this month is not truly a punishment. Instead, it's drama and adventure, things you actually want in your campaign. A player who didn't want this sort of thing to be part of his character would simply not have it. They would, instead, write it into their backstory or expend some effort getting the corporate permits to allow them to tote their favorite rifle around on their back. The social stigmata of doing this is then what they want, and should be provided with gusto. Everywhere they go people look at them with fear and suspicion and he can leer right back and give them a toothy murder grin. Who are we to stop them from adding drama and flair to our games? Some of you talk like killing the characters is a reasonable solution to the problem of mechanical imbalance. Remember that they are the detailed and main characters in a novel of your making. They strive against the system, try to make a difference, maybe die trying, but never just die. If Hiro got randomly splattered in chapter 3, Snow Crash would not be such a good book. We're telling a story here, with every session, every encounter, and endangering the story to fix some mechanical problem is bad. The mechanics keep the story alive, we should use them for that. PS: on an unrelated note, I could use a tutorial on how to use 3G3 correctly. My handgun rounds keep are coming out more powerful than cannons. I don't know what i'm doing wrong.
  3. ...oh yeah. lets try it! Best Handguns by Availability E - Armalite 44 P +0 J E 4d6+1(12mm) 8 1 ST 50m 450eb CP2020 C - Colt ATM Model 2000 P +0 J C 4d6+1(12mm) 8 1 VR 50m 500eb CP2020 P - Nova Arms "Arno" .454 Magnum P +1 J P 6d6+3(.454) 6 2 VR 100m 1799eb (cased ammo, ET) Solo2 R - ??? Best Rifles by Availability E - Kalishikov A-80 Hvy. Rifle R -1 N E 6d6+2(7.62) 35 25 ST 400m 550eb CP2020 C - Militech Ronin Light Assault R +1 N C 5d6(5.56) 35 30 VR 400m 450eb CP2020 P - Militech Cyborg Rifle R +1 N P 7d6+3(.300) 30 20 ST 500m 800eb Chrome2 R - ??? well look at that. All the 'good' weapons have poor availability, while the less good ones have common or everywhere. Rare weapons don't seem to be better than poor ones, but whatever. It works! I don't know the rules for weapon availability offhand, but if poor availability is really damn hard to get, and really damn expensive when you do, then we have ourselves a tier based system right here. Poor availability weapons have their own drawbacks (being poor availability) and so should be allowed to put big holes in little punks. Most people have crummy easy to get handguns, which means everyone does 4d6. 4d6 means that they can hurt SP14 armor with AP ammo, and can murder SP4 with HV ammo. Use availability rules to keep the weapons from creeping too far beyond this, and house rule the armor? Armor has normal EV penalties, and an additional house ruled EV penalty of -1EV for every 2SP above 12. You can go buy swanky CB4 armor, but the SP22 stuff will get you a nasty -5EV penalty. How's that sound? Makes grenades eat people for breakfast.
  4. StrayCatalyst, your dichotomy of suck, suck or roleplay is just doesn't survive when it hits play without it being forced. Even if we use concealment rules to restrict what weapons people carry, even if we design situations where characters are restricted to only handguns, there's still such a wide range of damages from handguns that to survive the big ones it makes you immune to the little ones. Wonder Nines do 2d6+1, averaging 8 damage. They cost about 200eb. With AP ammo this can reliably damage SP15, and putting High Velocity rounds in it will put big big holes in anyone with SP4. The Nova Arms "Arno" .454 Magnum is just as concealable as a wonder nine, costs a lot more, and does 6d6+3 of electrothermal fury. The Militech .577 Boomer Buster can be stock folded to be as concealable a wonder nine, but it'll hurt the accuracy. Won't stop it from doing 5d6 and halving all armor without halving damage. Plus it costs a paltry 450eb. It's a hell of a lot better than 2 wonder nines. These big guns can do damage to things with SP34. The High Velocity Splat range is anything lower than SP18. There is nothing in the rules that keep players from buying the good weapons instead of the crap weapons. House ruling all the good weapons one by one is not the elegant approach to this. Instead we need a way (perhaps by actual damage value) to tier the weapons and then allow access to them one tier at a time without making it stupid and arbitrary. The joy of CP2020 is that you can bring cannon to a knife fight, but that its a dumb idea to do such. But this doesn't keep characters from bring boomer busters to a hand gun fight. What should we do?
  5. There seem to be two distinct categories here. - jobs where the carpenter is assisted by unskilled laborers. - jobs where the group of amazing scientists all work on the drug. In the carpenter example, because the carpenter is the only one with serious skills, the others can provide mild bonuses to his roll, or instead reduce time spent between each roll. In an actual build-a-house 'adventure' each action would require a skill roll, most of which would be so paltry an unskilled laborer would have no problems with it. Then every half hour or so a /real/ check would come by as a wall frame is completed and it has to be properly placed in the structure. At this point the carpenter would come by and make the check. These are the only checks we actually roll though. If the carpenter was working alone, he'd have to make all those stupidly easy checks also, which would take lots of time. unskilled laborers and soak up most of these rolls, making the process faster. Divide the total time required by the number of people working on it, up to some reasonable max amount of workers. Farmers used to get together and raise a barn in a weekend. -=- When researching a drug though, unskilled labor isn't useful because there are no easy rolls. All the hundreds of round-by-round rolls are all hard. Then estimate them out to hourly or daily results per scientist. Pick some number of successful rolls required to make the drug and let everyone roll against that DC accumulating successes until its done. More scientists equal more rolls equal faster work, but unskilled guys are unlikely to be of any help. -=- Both function the same except that one has easy rolls that laborers can make, and the other does not. This takes a realistic assigning of check DCs so that unskilled people can usually help you do things. Just because installing armored plating on a vehicle is difficult (25) doesn't mean that every single bolt and hauling labor and painting and welding joint is all DC25. Most of it is mundane work anyone could do, with only the important decisions being DC25.
  6. one of us isn't making any sense. It's not that i want bullet proof characters, its that CB4 MAKES bullet proof characters. I could veto CB4 because of this, but then there would be something somewhere else that makes nearly-bullet proof characters. Then do i veto that? It is a slippery slope down to banning everything and making all my own gear, which defeats the purpose of having supplement books. Because making the supplements useless is bad, that means that banning everything is bad. Because banning everything is bad, there should be a good way to allow stuff from the supplements without breaking the game. What is this way? One possible way is to just let everyone wear SP22 armor and just let everyone carry weapons that can punch though it. The book gets used, and they aren't armor proof, they are just proof against weapons people don't use anyway. Every street thug has 6d6+3 plasmatic handguns and 7d6 cyborg rifles. It isn't overkill, its expected. The corporate security forces are outfitted to deal with this and get PA suits, Armored AVs and antitank missiles. Armor isn't going to go up infinatly, it caps out about SP22 because thats where EV penalties start to show up. Another possible way to use the supplements which might not negate lower range weaponery is to house rule in a flat, additional EV penalty based on SP rating, regardless of how you got it. Anything exceeding SP12 gets 1EV for every 2SP over 12, in addition to any EV has naturally. Weapons that beat the tar out of SP12 armor are kept out of the hands of street thugs. Which one is the right answer? What solution did you find? how do i do it right?
  7. "you gm, you god" is perfectly fine advice, but i knew that already. The books have no value to me if i'm going to house rule everything in them. Instead, i want books that i can hand to the players and not worry about ruling against everything. The CB4 armored clothes really do get to 22SP easily. A pairing of Heavy-over-light clothing stacks to SP22 on head, torso and arms. A turtleneck and jacket will cost you something like 400eb. A pairing of heavy-over-medium clothing on your legs stacks to SP23. Light+Heavy on the top is no EV penalty, and Medium+Heavy on your legs is also no EV. The pants will run you about 200eb. And you might want a better helmet because headshots are bad. The SP25 Full Plate Helm costs 100eb and gives you infared and antidazzle. It might not be stylish but its worth toting around to slap on your head when the bullets start flying. The clothes, on the other hand, can be +6 Wardrobe and Style stylish in their beauty if you spend enough on em. SP22 isn't in the realm of military armor, its in the realm of cheap armored clothing. In a world where a few hundred eb makes you immune to 9mm rounds, it would be silly to bother carrying a 9mm weapon. So everyone ends up with SP22 armor and giant weapons to bypass other people's SP22 armor. I'm not even sure this is a problem. Do i care if there are only 8 feasible non-heavy weapons?
  8. 3G Guns Guns Guns is a wonderful book with the ability to relisticly stat any weapon you can think of. http://www.btrc.net/3g3 I've used my copy to make overpowered handguns. yay Also, other people have done a lot of your work for you. http://falloutpnp.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page FPNP has all the game weapons and stuff with descriptions and game stats, it would probably be easier to make a system to convert from their stats instead of making up stats yourself. The whole system isn't bad either, you might like it.
  9. well yes, that is why i'm bringing it up, but SP22 isn't hard at all to get, its what simple armored clothing comes out to. EV0 armor isn't restrictive to wear, nor is it all that heavy. The only fatigue rules i know about are in pacific rim, and that's for tropical heat and deserts, not at night in the rain where all /real/ cyberpunk campaigns take place. I do encourage characters to not walk around in hard armor, but a t shirt, jeans and trenchcoat is sp22, and that isn't 'suspicious gear'. So is this a problem? Is the party being immune to 9mm bullets bad, and if so, how can it be fixed?
  10. i want to talk about weapons and armor, but i don't even know if anything is wrong. There already exists armor that protects characters from damage and weapons that allow characters to deal damage though armor. Looking though all the books, the best armors are SP22-28. The armored clothing from CB4 can get to SP22 without any EV penalties, and can be worn about because its clothing. Cheap too. Home of the Brave has military assault armor that gives extra vision types and thermal/electrical protection and SP28 Hard, with -2EV. Full-Cons and people in power armor can get much much more SP, but isn't what we should balance to anyway. With the armored clothing being so good and so cheap, it puts quite a demand on weapons. The math says that AP ammo will out damage everything else until you do something like 10d6 per hit. Also, guns that do 3d6 won't hurt people on average rolls even with AP ammo. This weeds out a good 75% of the weapons out there. For handguns you are limited to 12mm arm breakers, plasmatic revolvers and the boomer buster. SMGs have a similar issue, making everything that isn't an MPK2020 a waste of time. So is this a problem? Armored clothing limits us to only a few weapons, but many games have only a few weapons and it works out fine. D&D has a short list of weapons and those are all very much the same. Getting hit with a great axe feels a lot the same as getting hit with a great sword. So is this a problem? there are a few flavorful armors out there, like that optical cloaking stuff from Chrome 2, but it just doesn't have the SP required to keep people alive, and so you can't use it. I could possibly change the entire system to allow a wider range of weapons and armors to be useful, but that would be hard, and it isn't clear that there is a problem to begin with.
  11. I've read up on Electroactive polymers, and right now they really just don't work well. They require dangerous amounts of electricity and then expand less than 1%. But cyberpunk says EAP is the way to go so I'll run with it. EAP bypasses the need for a motor. A computer near the batteries, which are stored int he torso, regulates the electricity sent to each section of EAP, which determines what pose the cybernetic limb is currently in. The core book provides an option to go hydraulic instead, which increases strength x3, and makes it more durable, but also heavier and more bulky. This indicates to me that EAP is not as strength to weight efficient as hydraulics. Strangely, but quite usefully to me, EAP has a linear force curve, while electric motors tend to have a um, curved force curve. This would make it a lot easier to determine the damage from a cyberlimb attack because it would have linear acceleration. More EAP gets you more strength and more mass. New cyberlimb components: 25% Structure (with different mass to durability options) 70% EAP (with different amounts and pinning options) 05% Electrical Wiring (most of the EAP control system is kept in the torso) EAP, having a linear force curve, will eventually be outclassed by hydraulic motors once the mass gets high enough. When the player does transfer over, they need 2 components to replace the EAP. 20% Hydraulic pressure system 50% Motor Now the motor could possibly be kept in the torso also, which would let you have a honking big motor to run all of your limbs. This could be pretty powerful by the math.
  12. What started as an argument about weather or not the weight of a robot's arm adds to its damage, i'm now working on modeling robot limbs punching things, and how and where the joules of damage come from. I need some inspiration on the construction of cyberlimbs, which is why i'm here talking with you cool froods. Parts of s cyberlimb: A Chasis for everything else to bolt on to. This part would determine the size of the limb. In your body, your bones do this. A Motor to move the thing. I've shopped for light weight electric motors, and it looks like you get much more torque per kg out of heavier motors. Because of this, it would be much better to have 1 motor in the arm and a hydraulic system to move it instead of individual servos at each joint. The motor and hydraulics do what your muscles would do. A control device to make it do what you say and read the incoming data from your neural-ware processor. This does the job of your nerves. Cyberarms don't bleed, so they don't need any blood vessels. Armor and upgrade slots are things that go on your limb, and are not necessary for it to function. Is that it? a standard handless human arm weighs 3kg, so i'm thinking something like this: Motor: 50% total mass. Chasis: 25% total mass. Hydraulics: 20% total mass. Interface: 5% total mass. does that seem about right? what parts am i missing?
  13. http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/10/10122.phtml Review of it right there. D20 has always had issue with guns because it never made sense that someone who was better at programming or picking pockets would also take more bullets to bring down. I am interested in the netrunning system though; I'll torrent the book and see what i can see, and get back to yall.
  14. there's basic cyberlimb armor in the core book which gives your shiny metal arm SP20, and nobody should walk around without it. Somewhere out there is either higher quality arms, or heavier armor that brings it up to 25. If you don't put the armor on it though, your metal limb is no more resistant to damage than a fleshy one. It can still take a sniper bullet though... I don't think it would be out of hand to give converted limbs a free SP10 or so because they are made of metal after all, and SP10 won't save you. (Count it as a free layer, like skinweave, for armor stacking purposes.)
  15. Actually as I said earlier, the perfect system would be the one that uses thing really simple rules that just happen to perfectly reflect user expectations. We don't expect handguns to be better than rifles, and so if they are, that's a problem with the system. Also, we expect handguns to be usable because they are there and there's freaking 100 types of em, but if they turn out to be useless then that's a problem with the system also. What ruins experiences with games is when you can't do something you think you should be able to. If you can run at 800MA, you'd expect to be able to jump across a 2 lane street. If the system doesn't let you, then that's whats wrong, not your expectation that you should be able to. It's the break in submersion that happens when you have to be annoyed that the jumping rules don't care about how fast you can run. Now a good GM will flick the rules away and let the player make the jump, but a good system wouldn't require that of him in the first place. What we expect characters can do is based on our real life experiences, and so the system should reflect those with just a touch of fantastic in it. Most people think that they could kick down a light door if they wanted to, but a system that makes this difficult is flawed. Most people don't think they could kick down a cinderblock wall, so a system that lets normal people do this often is also flawed. So yes, mastering the mechanics of 3g3 weapon design and determining if it reflects real life enough might prove useful in the creation of the perfect system. and you didn't answer my hard math questions.
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