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MonSTeR

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Everything posted by MonSTeR

  1. MonSTeR

    Armor improvements

    Quote This is actually an interesting situation. You see, i've read all of Gibon's stuff, a bunch of Williams, Sterling, etc. and I have yet to see a single instance of "Style over Substance". I've seen plenty of "Style = Substance" and the like, but i've never seen the quote that everyone just loves to toss around. I can't help but wonder where it came from in the first place, Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! ) Re-read the opening passage of Stephenson's "Snowcrash" it's a great example of style over substance. I'm not sure where the exact quote comes from either actually ?!?!? The fact is that these ficticious armours are prevalent in both the existing game and in the literature that surrounds it. I think "bullet-broof Armani" is just as important as the cyberlink and neuralware processor to the genre, and we need to work a way to fit these quintessential artifacts of the genre into any game that's supposed to represent it.
  2. Top Jimmy moves skillfully through the evening traffic, giving the finger at appropriate intervals and yelling abuse at drivers he deems careless or just plain dumb. It's not long before the van pulls up outside the mafia hangout "Gandolfini's" Looking through the windows at the brightly lit interior it's not what folks might have expected. It seems to have a vague art-nouveau theme, with stark contrasts of white and black offset by the soft pale purple. You can all make out several figures inside sitting in rather than on what seem to be huge soft black leather armchairs. There's a typical gorilla on the door standing inside the bar's entrance, he's of afro-caribean descent and has a smoothly shaved head. Thumper looks at Neko, and then half to his fellow samurai and half to the others notes that the doorman seems to be packing a heavy pistol under his coat, but doesn't seem to be carrying anything heavier. He also points out that they've all been on camera for a while as the establishment has them mounted high upon the building surveying the whole street.
  3. I definately think that it's interesting that the hit locations are allocated as they are when I'm fairly sure even untrained folks tend to fire at the obvious target (ie torso) I'd be tempted to have the torso occupy at least 50% of the hit locations and maybe tag the "extra" bits on for the sake of "randomness". 1 = head 2-6 = torso 7 = r. arm 8 = l. arm 9 = r. leg 10 = l. leg Or something similar. Massdark, you're going to need to explain where you got the numbers over 10 from though? I think it's important to balance realism with the fact that cyberpunk is a literary and cinematic genre.
  4. I'm always very tempted to simply say "here you go" with the skills and keep them all at the same regular IP cost and that rather than try to make the skills more expensive make the difficulty numbers harder for hard tasks, so that only those with a higher skill level can accomplish them, make "brain surgery" a difficulty 25 or so task for med-tech rather than making med-tech harder to learn and having the task be a difficulty 20 roll. I'm of the opinion that if you make skills like SMG harder to acquire it makes them more desirable and newbie players will still make their characters have SMG +10 and just NO other skills at all. Those bent on abusing a system will abuse it no matter what anyone does with the rules. At least if they've got enough skill/IP points left over then they might also think to pick up shadow/track or driving too. Like you say it's trying to make a game that's playable not just superrealistic for hardcore veterans to play. I think the biggest chapter should be on guidelines and advice and the different mindset that is involved with playing Cyberpunk compared to most games. We should SHOW them how to create a character from the start, how to keep their characters balanced and the huge advantages that come from a well rounded character. One of the problems with the 2020 rulebook was the fact that the sample characters (Johnny Silverhand etc) were all so advanced and out of whack with the regular starting characters that folks who were newbies had no idea how to organise skills to get the most out of the game. Maybe we should have a regular side bar thing called something like "Munchkin-Alert" to point out why players look dumb and will have no friends if they make characters with Combat Sense 10, Tae Kwon Do 10 SMG 10 and Handgun 10.
  5. MonSTeR

    Armor improvements

    Quote (psychophipps @ Oct. 21 2002,20:16) What "civilian" armors? They are exactly the same thing wether you buy them from a gun shop or direct from the factory as a military/police acquisition. This is why you will never see a kevlar duster or other limited-use armor being mass-produced because setting up a whole assembly line from scratch to make it for that very limited audience would be a waste of time. Sure places will offer them, but each job will basically be a custom one. For the "stylish corporate protection" I think you'd see what you see now. An existing peice of clothing with panels of ballistic protection sewn in with a custom fit to keep it tight to your body. That's another problem that hasn't been addressed. For body armor to work correctly, you need it to be pretty tight to your body. Having the vest/panels shift when you get shot could easily cause tears and other situations that would compromise the protection that it gives you. This coupled with the fact that it doesn't stretch is why this stuff is so bloody warm and uncomfortable to wear during long-term strenuous activity. Is it just me or am I taking all the fun out of wearing this stuff? Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! ) The "civilian armours" like the italian arachnisilk suits featured in the chromebooks. And of course they aren't going to be mass produced, if it's mass produced no-one will wear it, it has to be original dah-link three words... Style over Substance. If you want to write a realistic game go for it, but you've got to remember that cyberpunk in it's whole history has always maintained at least some dramatic license. If a game is to retain some semblance of cyberpunk, it's going to need some form of "pseudo-science" otherwise it stops being Cyberpunk and starts being a Tom Clancy technothriller. If the boffins can't come up with a way to get "cool" armour, then it's pretty likely that full integration of machinery with the voluntary nervous system is even further off, so kiss goodbye to boosterware, cyberlinks and so on. Then you're just playing Twilight 2000 without the nuclear war.
  6. MonSTeR

    Armor improvements

    Quote (psychophipps @ Oct. 20 2002,21:14) Quote But then we wouldn't NEED that if the armours were just given the die code, and the "real" armours could show where abouts the ficticious (arachnisilk italian suits etc) fell in comparison. Actually, these codes won't be going anywhere soon. They're so standardized and ingrained into the parlance and acquisitions structures of the various security/military structures that they really can't disappear at this point. They furthermore give an easy reference to allow people to match the level of protection they need to the threat level they think that they will probably encounter. So now we get into "style over substance". Sure, you'll see Arachnisilk suits and other items that are sold as protective garments, but are you going to trust your security detail with the same kinds of things if they aren't truly "rated" to protect you from likely harm? Of course not. And you can't have one of those suits look like a real suit if it provides Class IIIA protection from blunt trauma... It's really up the Referee in the end but you know how I feel about realism adding a necessary grittyness, Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! ) LOL - yeah you got the wrong end of my stick there I was saying that as long as the "real" armours are there which they will be, that the "civilian" armours can be slotted into the respective places. I'm also very much in agreement that something like skinweave or an arachnisilk suit can stop a bullet from penetrating, but it's surely not going to stop you from going black and blue.
  7. So far this is getting no-where. Some folks think BTM is a great idea, some don't. The only way forward on this is something like to simply state that some folks ignore it as they think ignoring it adds realism and some folks include it as they feel including it adds realism.
  8. MonSTeR

    Armor improvements

    This is pretty much the old West End Games' Star Wars system, where the armour was rated in the exact same way as the weapons' damage codes. It worked there pretty well so... The only thing I wonder is the class system for the armour ratings. At the moment the armours are all "real" armour classes but I'm just wondering how "future" advancements will cope and whether they'll fit into neat categories like this when they're for civil rather than military/law enforcement usage. But then we wouldn't NEED that if the armours were just given the die code, and the "real" armours could show where abouts the ficticious (arachnisilk italian suits etc) fell in comparison
  9. As far as I see it, this is geared towards reducing a munchkin problem rather than aiding the game overall. In short I think you've got the skills grouped according to their percieved usefulness in games rather than perhaps the difficulties involved with learning the skills. I've long had issues with the difficulties involved with folks saying one skill is more difficlt to learn/master than another. Is biology or pharmaceuticals really simpler than Medtech? Is Melee really easier to learn than any other martial art? Or howabout "expert," surely it shouldn't only be an "average" task to be an expert? I say no. I'd be more inclined to give folks a basic starter package (I think Phipps noted this in his KISS system) of the basic skills, brawling, driving, vcr programming varying slightly depending on the player's choice of the character's background and then maybe stress in the rules/guidelines about the importance of creating a balanced character and then even all the skills out for simplicity's sake I'd even maybe ignore the IP modifiers altogether. In answer to the poll I'm sitting between "that's acceptable to me" and don't like it one bit, unfortunately closer to the latter than the former. I do like the IP costs noted here, it's very reminiscent of the Star Wars stuff from West End, which imho worked incredibly well balancing game play and character advancement with realism.
  10. Quote (psychophipps @ Oct. 18 2002,00:04) Quote On this matter (and keeping nearer the existing damage system) I'm of the opinion that some bonus for damage should be given for a very successful "to hit" roll. Another way to reflect the consistency of ballistics but still keep things random would be to average all the dice but one d6 or d10. Example: A 5.56mm round does 5d6. The average roll on a d6 is 3.5 so you'd get a damage of 4 * 3.5 or 14+d6. A 9mm round does 2d6+1 for 3.5(4) + 1 or 5+d6. Just round things nearest for odd numbers and you're good to go. This does, however, increase the effectiveness of armour a bit against the low-end loads but the higher-end weapons are about the same since the more dice you roll, the higher your chances of rolling around average. The proposed armor mods elsewhere would help this from getting too broken. Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! ) The trouble I see with this is something I hinted at before. A bullet onl does the "same" ammount of damange if it's hitting the "same" target. If a bullet hits the target in the "head" it can either penetrate the skull, liquidize the brain and provide a nice big hole for the whole cocktail to poor out of. Or... It can graze the target doing little more than nicking his earlobe or just breaking and burning the skin. Both are hits to the head but have obviously very different realworld severities and outcomes. That's why I feel the accuracy of the shot should have a definite bearing on the "damage" result. So that a pinpoint accurate "to hit" roll influences the results towards the bullet hitting something vital, or a weak point in the armour, type of thing reflected in it doing "more" damage than the completely random/independent version. In the past I've said that if you roll a 10 on your "to hit" roll that the round does it's maximum damage. Works ok to start with but it relfects more "dumb luck" than skill, which isn't all that realistic.
  11. The sun has vanished from the sky now, a hazy yellow glow bleeds into the deep blue sky just over the horizon but where you are in the city everything seems to maintain that familiar orange glow of the streetlights. Rat directs Top Jimmy through the streets to the Live Wire as he talks to Nine-Mill "It's getting around, but you and yours weren't the story. It's the Mob slant that's causing the explosion, someone hit one of Danny Vito's places and survived and that he's looking for blood. Wasn't till later we found out that it was a freelancer's score that got lifted. We knew that you had stuff going down and it was't long 'fore we pieced it all together." "Yeah we got it brained out!" Top Jimmy chirps in obviously pleased that the 7th Street Mission jumped to the correct conclusions. "Can't say how far it's spread, Rat but most folks seem to think it's all Mob related. I don't think your rep's on the line yet." Rat knows Nine-Mill well enough to know she's not pulling punches, his rep's safe for now, and Vito's organisation that's taken the hit. The Mafia Don won't mind that for now, it'll mean that when he gets to "cement" his relationship with some wannabes it'll reaffirm just how tough he is. But he's not gonna let this transgression go unresolved for long. The van pulls up smoothly outside the techie bar where Neko and Shrap are waiting outside in the cool night air and neon glow, slight condensation forming from their breath. In Little Italy Thumper's cab pulls up a little down the street from Gandolfini's a known Mafia hangout. The area is mostly 3 and 4 story brownstone apartments converted into chic offices on the first floor, bars here and there on the lower floors and expensive apartments remaining on the top floors and the occasional whole building. Thumper can make out Gandolfini's 50 or so yards down the street. There's a small sign with a flowing script bearing the establishment's name hanging on the side of the building, it seems to be a ground floor (GM Note - do you guys in the US call that the first floor?) place. The sign is white with a pale purple logo, illuminated in soft ambient light.
  12. Quote (psychophipps @ Oct. 17 2002,21:37) Or we can accept the simple fact that ballistics are pretty consistent and have a set damage with a random result based on the level of success and the relative size/physiology of the target. If a shooter makes the most amazing roll ever, it's pretty damn annoying to roll that 2 + 3 result (not that this has ever happened to me a lot, of course... ). That's something I'll agree with. Getting a roll of 40 on your "to hit roll" and a roll of "5" for your damage, starts at annoying then turns into weird as you actually realise the implications of each. Total accuracy, placing the round straight through the targets elbow:) and then less than total accuracy as the round takes the tattoo off his biceps On this matter (and keeping nearer the existing damage system) I'm of the opinion that some bonus for damage should be given for a very successful "to hit" roll.
  13. Quote (malek77 @ Oct. 17 2002,00:29) Generally - a bullet is going to put the same sized hole in our RMC or Gertie. I don't really think it cares that much about its target... Yes the bullet makes the same sized hole. That's equated to the damage stat mechanic attributed to the bullet. BUT it's not making that same sized hole in a same sized target. Nor a target made of exactly the same substance. If Granny has got frail little arms with a 6 inch circumference, that means that her arms are only 2" across. If the RMC has biceps with a 20" circumference, then they're roughly 7" across. So let's assume that the bullet makes (and I know it doesn't but bear with me) a perfectly cylindrical hole 2" in diameter. Now if that wound is applied to Granny, the 2" wide arm with a 2" wide hole in it is... come on boys and girls... OK, it's going to get severed. BUT If the RMC with his 7" wide arms receives that same 2" wound (remember the bullet is going to put the same sized hole in our RMC or Gertie. I don't really think it cares that much about its target...) then there's still 5" of tissue left. If you then go on to look at things like bone strength, and the person's overall health. If Granny recieved a good kick to the arm it is more than likely going ot break, the bones have gotten weaker, the connective tissues aren't as elastic as they were. If the RMC recieved the same blow, then he's got lots more muscle to soak up the damage and titanium bonded to his bones to stop them breaking. When rolling damage "2d6+3" or whatever, the variable number of points caused accounts for where exactly it hits, does it smash the bone and sever tendons (15 points) or does it just nick the target and shoot on past (5 points).
  14. Quote (Joe Q. Public @ Oct. 16 2002,03:42) Hey folks idea, let's just sh!tcan the BTM, it's the #1 problem that most folks have w/ the stat to begin w/ If it's a problem, and it serves no purpose but making munchkins that much harder to kill, well then get rid of it It's an idea, but it's a BAD idea unless you're going to totally redo the damage system. If you get rid of it completely without replacing the system somehow, then it means a 90 year old woman with osteoperosis can take as much physical damage as a Royal Marine Commando with titanium laced bones. i.e. WRONG Something is needed in the system to reflect that punching granny in the face is going to cause more damage than if a world heavyweight champion took the same blow to the face. I don't have a problem with the idea of BTM, it "might" want recentering, so that an "average" body type of 5-7 has BTM of 0 instead of the -2 it's at now. But I still maintain that if a GM is complaining about the fact he has munchkin players with ubercyberware, steroids, grafted muscles and the like pushing up their BTM to astronomical levels, that's just BAD GMING. Phipps should start selling those armoured cyberboots
  15. Quote (marsbiolabs @ Oct. 15 2002,15:27) Another idea: MA is now the governing STAT for swimming, atheltics, endurance and any other skills that might fit the "fitness" category. BTM is based on MA + BODY / 2 instead of just BODY. BODY still governs Damage Bonus, Lift Carry etc... Making MA more attractive means that players have to spend character points in it as well as BODY. I know that most players save character points by having a low MA stat. Of course then we would need to alter the cheesy MA boosting cyberlegs. And as for players boosting their BODY with cyberwear you could make them halve the increase the cyberwear gives them and apply to both MA and BODY. IMHO adding another STAT would cause more complications, perhaps we can use the under utilised MA stat to solve some of these problems. I'm not sure I can seeyour physical endurance having that much to do with how fast you can run, it's to do with Body, that's why it's already governed by that stat;) And again with the BTM, somewhat maybe but not really all that much to do with how fast you can run, even though most sprinters are in great physical shape. I'm also of the opinion that "averaging" stats that can lead to fractions rather than integers is NEVER a good idea in an RPG.
  16. As the three walk out to the van Nine-Mill turns to face Rat and walks backwards, "Yeah like we heard 'bout that badness! How you's get mixed up in that anyhows?! But that's mob-land and just a lil bit too North for us or..." Her voice trails off and she opens her arms apologetically. "But yah business is business y'know and no juicers' gonna get the best of us, right TJ?" She turns her shaven head to her second in command who nods furiously and smiles in a mildly psychotic but none the less contented way.
  17. MonSTeR

    ET 2020

    And now, back to "Climbing for Dollars"
  18. MonSTeR

    ET 2020

    Quote (Thunderbird @ Oct. 15 2002,13:16) One show that is a must is "Hard-core News". Remember the beginning of "Predator II" ? The big shoot-out with the columbians made it live on TV. That was a brilliant bit, of that film, I've always thought Predator 2 was incredibly Cyberpunk, a black ops team, opressive city back drop, uber-violent streetgangs. hell the only thing that's not cyberpunk about that film is the predator itself But yes, HardCore news (live with Tony Pope) is definately something that'd be on, maybe also the "streaming freedom broadcast" idea seen in the TV show "Dark Angel" and similarly J-Bone's infoblasts from Johnny Mnemonic. Untracable unstoppable hacker type things. I also think the corps will get in big on TV, probably with their own channels, filled with their own commercials and subdivision's sponsorship with every show being sponsored by "XenoGen - the biotech company with a view to your future" or the like, with huge product placements, be it HK guns, Toyo-Cheverolet automobiles anything the sponsor has a vested interest in. I reckon there'll also be a lot of "pirate" stations, much like the old pirate radio, with certain sections of the public trying to get a hold of some facts or some free choice.
  19. I've used a few of good sources. The first is "Sprawl Sites" which is a Shadowrun source book plenty of locations described and drawn out there. The next is anything "Twilight 2000" the 2nd (I think 2nd) edition rulebook had lots of great and well detailed floor plans all in 20mm figure scale (very prevalent amoungst "ultra-modern" wargamers) Lastly for if you need to cover big areas of anonymous city, I recommend Steve Jackson Games' old Car Wars maps. They did a series called "City Blocks" which work nicely. I've no idea where to download floorplans though I'm afraid.
  20. I'm another one reading to be entertained. It's fun and exciting and not dangerous. I mena yes I read to learn as well, but it's a wholly different mindset I'm in. I guess I read sci-fi/cyberpunk stuff, because my imagination and the authors' words usually do a better job of making a movie than anything other than a HUGE budget Hollywood flick can.
  21. MonSTeR

    The List

    I posted this list inthe original "offshoot" thread, here it is again in pecial edition format hi-fi stereo sound 1) It’s no longer 1988. 2) Incredibly static “roles”, introduction of “approved” flexibility within and around roles/archetypes etc. 3) Linear cost of character point distribution. Would a slight biasing be an option? 4) Statistics, several points here, i) separation of Body into “fitness and build” stats ala Phipps’ system, averaging of Strength feat with Body to get final “Strength Attribute” as in my system. ii) Introduction of “mechanical” type stat. iii) Introduction of “Pros and Cons” system, borrowed from GURPS and BESM. 5) Background system; perhaps shrink it down so as to focus on the most important thing that happened that year? Introduction of a “points based” background scheme. 6) Skill System. IP modifiers need a severe going over. 7) Reputation needs clarifying, the who’s where’s and when’s perhaps incorporate it as some part of a skill rather than a separate stat. 8) Gear Lists need updating a great deal to focus on current shifts in technology, cell phones will be the new laptops etc… 9) Cyberware needs revamping, perhaps an increase in price on “Cybernetics” over other more “organic”, as well as the humanity costs needing serious overhaul. Currently as it stands. At the moment a basic cyberoptic module that lets you have the same vision you had before can cost up to 12 hp, but having a built in microscope, that lets you see the bacteria on your food, well that only costs .5 hp. A cyberarm covered in realskin, that 75% of the time is INDISTINGUISHABLE from a regular arm, well that can cost up to 9 hp, having chrome plated armour on top of that, well… that only costs 3 points… I’d suggest making the basic functional item, less expensive on the humanity, but some of the options costing a lot more. 10) Redescription of a lot of the nanoware to be more biological and less mechanical, focusing on tailored viruses and symbiotic bacteria etc. Perhaps more detail on some of the options especially for “non-military” folks difference between thermo-optics and IR and Lo-Light etc. 11) FNFF, combat rules need clearing up, initiative and phases and who can act when. 12) Damage system, armour, and BTM. Rules for armour penetration vs Tissue damage. 13) Clarification of “head hits” when the damage is doubled, ir after armour but before BTM or…? Clarification of “point blank range” hits always doing maximum damage. 14) Clarification of melee attacks, how long it lasts, breaking off etc. 15) MMRR in FNFF (Monday Morning Road Rage) Vehicle rule revamp? 16) Medical Stuff is Joe Public’s domain. 17) Drugs need a complete over haul, especially with some durations make them a lot more effective/realistic? 18) Netrunning - LMAO. 19) All things dark and cyberpunk. Update/rewrite this section, to keep things as The public would say, “Underground”. Decide on a year in which to set the game, how far forward would it be taken in order to allow a reasonable level of technological progression. Changing the past from the year dot is ok, but extrapolating on the future is more logical. And here's the most important part... What would the influences be here in this new “biopunk” era? Who should we all read first. Is this our game “Snowcrash” as CP2020 is to gibson’s work? I don't know where anyone else is going to be pulling with this? Running cyberpunk. Well the biggest section, expand the “read/see/watch/do” list. Remember, it’s no longer 1988.
  22. Quote Quote ) instead of figuring new ways not to get shot. Quote I like this idea, but it would make things a LOT more lethal. Um - with it being more lethal, sh/wouldn't that encourage the players to be me more careful? ...Wouldn't it? Quote Weight - Somewhere in the Body stat is also weight. anecdote time : A friend had a character with a movement allowance of 4. He had to run flat out to keep up with the rest of the PC's walking, and spent a large part of the game running toward a piano...which he never quite reached... The only logical explanation we could come up with was that his MA:4 represented being enormously fat. Perhaps - Fitness and MA should merge. Fit people run fast don't they? (having observed many but not being one... ) Thoughts? Again, by saying fit people run fast is getting us into the all encompassing stats trouble that we're trying to get out of, and unless you want skills and stats for everything, GMs are just going to have to improvise. It's like saying someone with an MA of 10 can run like Maurice Green or Linford Christie, yes acceptable, but then how long can they keep that up for, the 100 meters? the 400, the 800 and so on. I tend to think of MA as the sprinting ability of a character. If you don't have a high MA you're just not a sprinter. But with a high enough endurance skill and a maybe an athletics skill then a character might make a long distance runner type. I've tended to keep Body as it is and then use the skills of "Endurance" and "Strength Feat" to show which direction the character is focused in. If a character of average Bod has a high endurance skill, then that can be used to represent their high level of cardio vascular fitness, if they have a high "strength feat", then that refelcts their ability to shift heavy weights, thier big muscles. If they have both, then it might be the equivalent of some cross disciplinary training, like a decathlete or similar. If they have Body 10, Endurance 10 and Strength Feat 10, then they're Batman;) I have a post somewhere where I tried to show the need for some type of BTM, as The Public said, Quote just because your big and bad doesn't mean the bullets bounce off you, get real True, but one must also look at the fact that if you do hit a 280lbs weightlifting martial arts expert with the same force that you hit an anorexic 13 year old girl, it's going to do comparatively less damage, if only from having more tissue there to soak up the damage. I think I made my point by saying that if each character recieved a cut 2 inches deep into their arm, then it might cut to the bone of the big guy, but it'd completely sever the arm of the little girl.
  23. Nine-mill makes her way through the bar, followed closely behind by Top Jimmy. Neither of them are old enough to be here, but they both move in the public house with a familiarity that belies their age, and is testament to thier upbringing. Nine-mill drags up a stool to tthe table and sits down with her mentor, three generations of the same family in everything but blood. She chirps up as the tow grown men pause intheir conversation for th children's arrival. "Hi, ready to go?"
  24. MonSTeR

    ammo types

    I'll extend Booywyrm's original advice here again. Quote Equally, your average guard should be decked out the same independently of whether the PC's are carrying ETE Golf Bag Bazookas or 6mm derringers. You'd only find heavier security on a more important site, or if a site gets repeatedly hit. Likewise they shouldn't be smarter. Independence is the key here, the game world should be exactly the same no matter what the PCs are doing. Security guards are still security guards, they should act in a fashion appropriate to their role. NPC IQ and skill levels like their firepower should not be directly proportional to anything involving the PCs, it should be wholely dependent on thier role. If the challenge has gone it's not that the combat sucks, it's that the PCs have come up against folks who offer them no challenge. Yes the players might get bored, but then they should be hitting higher risk scores not knocking over the 7-11 again. The whole premice of the adventure needs to change not just the power level of the NPCs.
  25. Personally (and psychophipps will probably flame me for this) I think Wolverine has had some great Cyberpunk storylines. I'm not talking about stuff where the X-men jet off into space. I'm talking about some of the stuff centred around the Weapon X project, his missing memories, and him being used as a pawn by various agencies and the like. Yes it's still very definately in the traditional comicbook style, but some of these stories have a very dark slant to them. There was a great story that ran in X-men 4-7 (the new volume, not The Uncanny X-men) and asome great stuff recently in his own book.
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