Ok.  The designers were obviously on crack when they made the damage for the tank guns.  A 9mm bullet does 2d6+1 damage, unless I'm mistaken.  A 140mm round does, what, like 26d10 or something?  That's roughly 30 times more.

That's insane.  The  damage for the really huge guns is SERIOUSLY underrated.  For the argument, a 9mm round will punch through 1mm of steel (less, actually).  A 140mm round will drill a hole through a block of steel several feet thick.

If real-world damage was the same as CP2020 damage, that 140mm round would go through 3cm of steel.  I rest my case.

Here is my read on it.

1 mm steel = 2.5 sp (Max Metal)

9mm:  2*3.5+1=8; 8/2.5 = 3.2mm of steel.  Probabably a bit high.

140mm:  26*5.5=143; 143/2.5= 57.2mm of steel.  Seems about right.  

Therefore, assuming the numbers for the 140mm are right, the 9mm round does too much damge.  

What realy gets me is the ranges for many of the heavy weapons.  

For instance, a Modern Scorpion is effective against targets within 5KM at up to 5,000 M, but in the game?  600M.  I don't think that SAM technology declined quite that badly.

Or how about most heavy weapons.  The ranges are at best conservative.  I have heard that the effective range for a tripod mounted .50 cal is about 2,000 m, but the listed range is 600m (I think, my books are at school and I am home on break).  Therefore, the max range would work out to be about 1200m which is 800 meters less than real life.  There are plenty of other examples.  

I would perfer a listing like this:  M2QCB:  600m (human), 2000m (supressive fire & fire at vehicles), 6000m (maxium range [only good for big imobile targets])

I realy hope that CP3 fixes this.

57.2mm is about 6cm of steel.  Modern 20mm cannons can easily punch through that.  3.2mm of steel was the amount of steel an '80s-era 5.56mm rifle bullet could punch through.  A 9mm wouldn't have a chance.

The damages are wacked.  If the 140mm cannon rolled a bunch of ones, a solo with good skinweave would take moderate damage from getting shot in the chest with a FRIGGIN' TANK GUN.

Yes, the ranges need some work too.

it's times like this that i'm glad that i swapped to 3G3 and my damage system years ago...

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

Quote (DragoonCav @ Dec. 29 2001,07:16)

57.2mm is about 6cm of steel.  Modern 20mm cannons can easily punch through that.  3.2mm of steel was the amount of steel an '80s-era 5.56mm rifle bullet could punch through.  A 9mm wouldn't have a chance. The damages are wacked.  If the 140mm cannon rolled a bunch of ones, a solo with good skinweave would take moderate damage from getting shot in the chest with a FRIGGIN' TANK GUN. Yes, the ranges need some work too.

But what are the changes of that?
All ones?
1 out of 10^26, or
1 out of 100 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000

You have better change winning in the lottery for crying out loud. And if that would happen to your character, I´d say you can change his/her luck to 11, (s)he deserves it.

I think the random rolls for the bullet/shell/projectile damage reflect somewhat the accuracy of the hit.

If a 9mm bullet hits an unarmoured arm for it's minimum damage of 3 points of damage. (2x1+1)  Then you should maybe consider that the bullet only nicked the character who just got shot. Enough to draw blood probably but not cause any serious problems, especially after BTM has been applied.

However if the same character is hit in the arm by a 9mm bullet doing maximum damage of 13 points (2x6+1) after the subtraction of BTM it's more feasable to imagine that the bullet smashed through a bone, or the elbow joint or tore right throught the tendons of the biceps or triceps orcut a nerve or whatever to completely knock the arm out of action good and proper. I'm not saying that the bullet should actually have "severed" the arm, but that the effects of the damage on the physical limits of the character and his use of said arm would be about as good as doing that.

In the case of the 140mm shell I think a minimum roll would reflect the damage caused when the shell explodes nearby scattering rubble/dirt/debris/shrapnel/whatever enough to cause "only" 26 points of damage. whereas a maximum roll has the effect of liquidising the character on the spot and it's this maximum roll rather than the minimum roll that represents the character getting "hit in the chest with a friggin tank gun"

I think Phipps has the ultimate solution for guys who aren't satisfied using Rtal's intelock damage system... CHANGE IT

The point isn't to change it, the point is to bitch about it.

Anyway, even comparing the maximum damages leaves you extremely wanting, as the max 9mm damage is 13, as oppoed to 260.  That's 15 times more.  Sorry, tank cannons aren't even in the same range as a handgun.

Hmmm.... maybe, if you made personal and vehicle-scale damages, it would work.  So, a 9mm used against a tank would do 1.3 damage at its worst, and a tank gun would do 2600 damage to a character.  Ouch.

umm...260 is 20 times 13, not 15 times 13.  

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

Whatever.

I figure that if you are hit by a tank gun, you are paste. Unless you were hit in the leg or arm then you MIGHT survive it. A chest hit will kill and a head hit is automatic death.
If your punkers argue you can ask them to get hit by a tank gun and see if they will survive it.  I don't think they will take you up on the offer. For me the damage is as it is. Alot depends where the PC was shot.
There will always be someone (or many) who will not be satisfied with the damage system. If they don't like it they will change it. That is what I love about this game, if you don't like something about it you can change it.

Max Metal did try to modify this:  

2D10 (avg 11) = PEN 1=4D6 (avg 14)

SP20=armor 1

I can't check sinse my books are at school and I am not.  But it does make damage better, despite flaws.  

I hope this stuff gets fixed.  

Psycho, what is the basis of 3G3?

3G3 is a system for fairly realistic weapons design for any tech level and most major RPG systems.  it has a pre-done CP 2020 conversion in the back of the book but it's CACK(!!!).  the book is pretty much a dry-as-hell "i want to waste lots of my free time by pounding on my scientific calculator while cranking out weapons of my own design" book.  it also includes railguns, lasers, particle beams, muscle-powered(bows and stuff), and melee weapons in addition to basic firearms design.  once you get good at it, you can bust an entire weapon out in about 5 minutes.

it's a great book and i'd advise just about anyone to have a copy even if it's just for occasional reference materials,
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

What in the world kind of game are you playing where people are getting hit with 140mm guns?

How's this for damage:

9mm---2d6+1
140mm---obliterates the S--- outta whatever it hit.

And rolling 26 of any die is crazy.  The more dice you roll, the less likely you are to stray from the average damage, which is 26*5.5 in the case of 26d10 (for a dose of perspective, rolling minimum or maximum damage with this combo is an astounding 1 in 100 SEPTILLION chance).  With 26 dice you won't go far, so you could save a lot of time by just setting a standard amount.  I know people like rolling dice, but yeowch!

What type of round is that 140mm shell? Is it an APFSDSDU round or just a big HE round? If it's a AP round then the round actually has to hit you to do any damage (okay, maybe if you were behind a wall and chunks of concrete hit you). If it's an HE shell or HE with anti-personnel design you'd be screwed if it hit you. Oops, what kind of detonating fuze is used on the HE shell? Is it impact detonated, variable timed, a combination of both or something else entirely. How far ar you away from the center of the round when it explodes. Also keep in mind that bursting HE shells do no make nice spherical explosions. I play a lot of Combat Mission which is a WWII game. There are a lot of times I've chucked high caliber HE close to units and had it do nothing. I can try to dig up the calculations for decreasing blast energy in relation to distance if anyone is really interested. BTW I was training out in NTC (Ft. Irwin, CA) when someone got hit in the head with a 25mm round. Wasn't in the same sector and didn't see it but I guess the guys head split open pretty bad. The medics duct taped his friggin skull back together!!!! and he survived. The guy survived but lost sight in one eye and had a lot of other major mental problems due to part of his brain missing. There were cases in WWII where the commander of a tank wuld get blown out of a tank with a ammo cookup and survive. There were even a few cases of TCs surviving a situation like this with only minimal injuries! Weird things happen, especially when you start chucking pointy 'splodey things around.
    Hanns

this reminds me of a time that i had a PC buy a Militech RPG.  he was going on and on about how it does 6d10 damage and all that, the long range it had, etc, etc until projectile vomiting set in.  
well, i pulled out my 3G3, calculated the realistic damages for a HEAT round and such, and asked him to hand his charcter over for a revision.  well he got all excited because the 3G3 conversions tend to do a lot more damage and had a grin from ear to ear when i handed it back to him.
it was all good until  he got to the revised part on his initial scan and his face suddenly fell.  not so chipper now, he asked, "i don't even roll for it?".  
"nope, you don't even roll for it unless you're shooting a main battle tank or something like that."
"okay", and he set his character sheet down and headed to the kitchen for a Mountain Dew.  
well, the other players were naturally curious and picked up the sheet for a look.  Mike, the first one to see the correct weapon entry, burst out laughing and handed it left for chuckles all around.  it read: Militech RPG-A HVY -2 N R "their ass for a hat" 1 1 VR 750m

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

Phipps,
 A RPG can do some serious damage to humans. German soldiers in WWII often used Panzerfausts as anti-infantry weapons to great effect. The modern Soviet RPG is merely and updated and refined version of that weapon. The difference between say a Dragon AT weapon and a RPG is that weapons designed for dual use often have a secondary charge for anti-personnel effects. A HEAT gas jet doesn't do that good of a job killing people unless you actually hit them with it. A round with a few extra oz of HE filler and a frangible case makes a handy dual purpose weapon. That's one reason the US started re-manufacturing the LAW. It wasn't good against any modern tank but was great at blowing up stuff behind hard cover. Also real light and handy. A trooper can easily carry 1-2 on his pack as spare 'splodey if the SHTF.

you're missing the point, but yeah, sure.  the point is that a realistically-designed HEAT or even HE round fired from a Militech RPG will ruin the target's day.  why bother rolling at all if the target is hit and the round goes off?  the main target(s) would be light armored vehicles at best, and just plain-jane automobiles about 99% of the time.  that baby goes off in/on a semi-enclosed space(like a car) and the targets WILL be "wearing their asses as hats", no?
this also isn't for everyone's game.  i just feel that combat should be the one spot where realism is very important to maintain the gritty feel that i go for.  if you disagree, than i give you props for doing what makes you and your players happy instead of listening to this blathering moron.
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

Ack! 26d10? Who the hell has that many 10 siders to roll! Ugh, the damage system is really screwed up when it comes to guns like these. I seriously, as a GM, do not want to sit there, in my chair, and roll EVERY SINGLE DIE! Am I the only one who sees this particular problem in the damage rolling?

the only problem i see is that you're bothering to roll in the first place.

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

Yeah, I agree.  Maybe it should do more damage but its kinda a moot point.  26D10 will kill pretty much anything except a Main Battle Tank (MBT), no matter what you roll   Even as a munchkin GM i don't use MBTs.  If I did it would probably be as an impassable object, not something the PCs could kill.  MBTs and 140mm guns are really beyond the scope of FNFF, which if you recall, is based off of small arms combat

the main target(s) would be light armored vehicles at best, and just plain-jane automobiles about 99% of the time.  that baby goes off in/on a semi-enclosed space(like a car) and the targets WILL be "wearing their asses as hats", no?

Thank you! In a game I ran using just the unmoded FNFF rules it took THREE RPG rounds to destroy a mid-sized sedan... that was not armored! Talk about annoying.

and that, my friends, is BULLSH*T! *waits for Hanns or DragoonCav to mention the totally random, 1/10,000,000 chances that they've read/heard about to disprove this statement*

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

I'll admit, not bloody likely.  Crazy sh*t does happen though.  Like when I rolled 4 fumbles in a row.  Maybe you could say the ammo  batch was defective

ahh...but then you say that it was defective ammo and it probably doesn't go off, that simple.  but a car taking 3 shots of exploding CP 2020 RPG rounds is BS, you have to admit.  it's called ANTI-TANK/ARMOR for a reason besides "but your Yugo is fine after catching a few".

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

Weird #### does happen tho dude.  Like that RPG that flew through the door of the ammo bunker in the first hour of Khe Sahn (sp?)  I mean, what are the odds of that...

ahh...but again, you're looking at the one crazy-assed, random 1/10,000,000(yes, the number is a bit big but i'm making a point, not a scientific study) chance compared to the "yeah, we caught 100 mortar rounds during that battle and they chewed us to hell..." or the "they fired about 1,000 RPG rounds at us, and unfortunately, they all functioned perfectly".  statistically, it's POSSIBLE, but the cack CP 2020 damage scale makes it almost LIKELY at times.
taking the random crap that gets spread around, like the Khe Sahn incident, or the crackhead taking 30 rounds and still walking, or Col. "Charging" Charlie Beckworth taking a 50 caliber round in the gut and living to create and lead Delta Force, or any other random war story for that matter, and adding it to the realm of a 10%-increment system A) cheapens the game to simple number crunching B) absolutely DOES NOT reflect reality or realism in all but the most twisted and childish of ways and C) makes combat into a random-fest instead of the brutal, nasty, ugly, and downright un-nice thing that it truly is and SHOULD BE.

but then, i'm an overbearing, opinionated w*nker
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

Not saying it does.  Just some really weird stuff can happen and CP is no exception.  I agree tho, "ass for a hat" is the most common outcome with an RPG.

Quote (Dillweed @ Jan. 08 2002,05:31)

Just thinking reading that topic. Are you refs out there surrendering the control of your story to the dices ?
I mean rules are here to help bringing some coherency into the game. When they get in your way just ignore them.

I truly agree w/ Phipps on the fact that rolling that kind of damage brings absolutly nothing. If a car is directly hit by a RPG round it goes boom, period.
Now if you're really keen on rolling dice make PCs roll their Luck (that's for the 'weird things happen' part). If the roll is low they're dead, if it's average, they're in 'death 3' (or whatever death level). If a PC rolsl 4 ten's in a row, he's sitting on the road everything w/ shards of hot metal falling all around a bit dizzy but completly unhurt.

Spending time on description and story telling is a far better investment than wasting into slowing the game by computing unecessary damage. If you don't believe me try to play at Amber for awhile.

i have actually noticed that this is really prevalent though, the NEED to roll dice, that is.  there is a certain visceral satisfaction to diddling the dice and getting a high number, this why all the twinkies think that bigger is better after all.  however, it can and does, bog the game down as a whole when you need to roll for EVERYTHING.  "i shot that unarmored 90-pound geek in the chest with my 30mm autocannon!" *grabs the hugh jass wad o' dice to diddle them*.
if it's PLAUSIBLE, not just possible, for someone/thing to survive a certain situation, than roll them bones!  but if it's just for some stupid, "look!  i rolled a 50 on 6d10!" ego-boost, than i usually don't bother at all.

and am i the only person who thinks that a .50 caliber doing the same damage as a Militech RPG-A is just WRONG?
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

Well the RPG round could be a dud.  Of course that would proabably why you would have lower damage.

Comparing a 50 cal and a RPG I would run it as the 50cal needed to penetrate your armor and the RPG round just does that much damage ignoring your armor.

So even a dud would do 6 points of damage from impact ignoring armor.

mind if i ask why a dud even becomes part of the equation?  in Veitnam, they had a little problem with the 40mm grenades fired by the M-79.  sometimes when the round was being cast, they had a crack near the arming mechanism that would make the round go off in the chamber of the weapon.  well, the congressional commitee that took care of this stuff thought that everything was kosher as it was thought to happen only about one round in 10,000.  the military heard about this little number and invited the congressmen to come over and fire off 10,000 rounds with a M-79.  funny, the new x-ray testing gear was installed post-haste and the problem disappeared.  go figure!
now let's take this a step further.  you're in CP 2020 and are looking to pick up an Anti-Armor missile system.  now, you can buy the Militech RPG-A, which by your reckoning should fire duds on a regular basis(be defined as more than 1 round in 10,000 aper the above example) or you can buy one that actually bloody well works when you pull the trigger!  which would you pick, hmm?
when you get into military arms, you need to realise that this weapon won't just go to a platoon, or even a division.  it goes EVERYWHERE.  look at the AK-47/AKM.  it's on a bloody FLAG, fer crissakes!  also, Militech will be equiping their own men with these weapons, so to allow the "dud" effect to even be considered would be to basically throw those men away after spending tens of thousands of dollars to train and equip them.
it one thing to say that the medium struck was insufficient to make the round go off(as evidenced in Somalia when a Ranger was killed by an RPG that got lodged in his chest through a truck door), but to simply say "it was a dud" would, and should, promt your players to ditch "that POS" and a "get real weapon".

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

My only guess is the if the was a timing error for the warhead (ie round hits cabin continues through and blows up after it passes through, causes shrapnel damage to car and some nice burns from the exhaust to the occupents)  Possible, but not too likley.  I don't feel like arguing this point any more.  Yeah FNFF isn't perfect, it was mean for small arms.  Get over it people

Quote (psychophipps @ Jan. 09 2002,20:01)

it goes EVERYWHERE.  look at the AK-47/AKM.  it's on a bloody FLAG, fer crissakes!

Which one?

some rinky-dink african nation, not sure which one off the top of my head.  it's a post-cold war country, IIRC.

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

Just had a look for it, the only one I can find is Mozambique.

Ah yes the wonderful paradise that it Mozambique. Now forever immortalized in the term "Mozambique drill" which consists of 2 shots to the torso and one to the head. Especially effective if one is using a 9mm pistol. Granted you still want the good ol' double tap to the head after they go down just to make sure but that's different  
     Hanns

Quote (TekXombie @ Jan. 05 2002,06:25)

Ack! 26d10? Who the hell has that many 10 siders to roll!

:: Hangs head in shame ::

I wouldn't worry too much about explosive ordinance duds unless they got their stuff from an unreliable source.  Ie.  getting RPG stockpile rounds left over from before the first Central Am wars that the US army accounting office forgot to send to destroy.     Ooops.  30+ year old rounds aren't really all that reliable.

This varies with the round - of course the more esoteric, complex and high tech, the more it''s likely to have problems if neglected. And beware of cheap manufacturing, knockoffs and the like (odds are a semi-legal ukrainian copy of Militech patended RPG round won't be much good)

I once read a paper about ammunitions giving the case of riffle rounds, picked up from a shipwreck. Yhey had spend something like 30 years in seawater, but were still working right...

Manu,
  I'd like to see that paper. Anything in seawater for an extended period of time is gonna be trashed. Hell, plain water will eventually seem into the primer and render the powder pretty much worthless. Granted I've pulled rounds out of an ammo can that was filled with rainwater (it was raining) and had them work fine. Thing was they weren't in there for a few days much less 30 years. I've fired 35 year old shotgun ammo which worked fine. It had been sitting in a sealed coffee can in my grandmother's basement since my father was a teenager. I've also fired some military surplus .45 ammo that was manufactured during WWII. Powder was a little more dirty than commercial rounds but it worked fine. Not bad for ammo that was almost 60 years old. Once again though this ammo had been in dry storage with humidity control. Want an easy (and cheap) test? Take some .22 LR rounds, put them in a coffee can with salt water. Leave them for a week or two and pull them out. I'll bet they'll be so corroded you'll hardly recognize them. Clean'em up a bit and try to fire them. I'll bet dollars to euros they won't work. FWIW,
    Hanns

humm i have two things here for all to know. i had a small problem with d10 one time over a corse of 15+ game sesons i think i got some 50+ one's in a row we had a pole going to see when i would get some thing els. oh yea thay were not my dice or were thay the same ones from the same person.

oh and the old ammo thing i have fierd 1935 45acp ammo that worked fine other then the primers wich were corosive and i had to do a lot of clening.

Well, brass and lead is pretty non-corrosive, and ammo is watertight.  Champagne that had been sent to the bottom (about 200 feet) almost 100 years ago during WWI was very drinkable, for example.  Sure, the iron wires holding the corks on had corroded away, but besides that (and it wasn't that big a problem, they just put wire mesh cages on the tops to hold the corks on) they were in perfect condition - even the corks!

On the other hand, the stuff that they were actually going after - the cogniac on the wreck, which had been stored in wooden barrels, was completely ruined with only a small hope of recovery.  Strangely enough, predictions on the find were exactly opposite to the actual results.

I've seen a 30-years seawater anecdot like this in GURPS High Tech.

I guess they selected the better-looking ammo, cleaned them (removing surface corrosion on the casing and bullet), and that some of them were still able to work, not the whole pack 8).

As for ammo from the sea:

The reference is to small arms ammo from USS Maine (ca. 1900 IIRC) It spend a few years under water in cases, wrapped in oilpaper etc. was taken out and cleaned, then fired. Mil Ammo is often laquered and otherwise waterproofed.

As to damage 9mm vs 140mm:

An anti tank shell (AP) will not transfer all it's energy in a human being or a normal vehicle. So in a system designed for human/human combat, some power simply is wasted.

The MM Vehicle combat system and FUZION introduce ways to model "big gun on hard/soft target" combat far better than FNFF.


Some things from reality:

A 120mm APFSDS from a Leopard II will punch through a Lada without doing much damage. That's why they didn't use the main gun against the two ideotic Serbs in the Kosovo according to the tank commander.

Depending on the setting and type some HEAT-Shells will not work against soft targets or when striking the ground. DualUse RPG's (RPG-7 isn't) either use different grenades or a variable setting fuse like Panzerfaust III. Using older german RPG's against "soft" targets required firing them against something solid (walls etc) to be sure they explode (At least that was the drill in 1987)

Normally one does not use AP/HEAT against "soft" targets. That's the reason every tank gun has a HE or Fragmentation ammo (also some don't have HEAT) and why the Brit's like HESH so much.

There are nummerous "bad" weapons in service. Ask the Brits (Enfield L80, Spigot-Mortar RPG), the US (M16 no bloddy A, A1..., M60) the French (Chauchat MG) or the germans (Mauser G41, Pistol 08) Often it's "cheapest source" not "best weapon". The RPG-7 is a classical example since the fuse shortens out easily. And the Bundeswehr still searches the "genius" that decided to go to lighter materials in the P38->P1 transfer...


                      Michael

--
I have no problems with that Techno Freak. So his music does 144 beats per minute. If it get's on my nerves, my MG-3 does about 600 rounds per minute...

Umm...the M-60 is an excellent weapon that does it's job quite well, thanks.  Where did you hear otherwise?

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

Quote (Stephane @ Jan. 16 2002,06:52)

I've seen a 30-years seawater anecdot like this in GURPS High Tech. I guess they selected the better-looking ammo, cleaned them (removing surface corrosion on the casing and bullet), and that some of them were still able to work, not the whole pack 8).

A few years ago a ww2bomber was pulled out of a bog in Britain. Some of the ammunition was still useable.

Quote (psychophipps @ July 26 2002,20:26)

Umm...the M-60 is an excellent weapon that does it's job quite well, thanks.  Where did you hear otherwise? Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

>Umm...the M-60 is an excellent weapon that does it's job >quite well, thanks.  Where did you hear otherwise?

>Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

Various sources including:

Various technical (not! RPG) productions stating problems in cooling, barrel changing and

The US-Army switching to the M240 despite having ordered the fifth version of the M60 a few years ago

US soldiers cursing the thing during REFORGER 1987 due to reliability problems and maintenance difficulties

Myself firing that thing and getting a jam after less than 30 rounds - My MG3, despite being older (an MG1 refit from 1963) never does that.

Myself being informed about a) The barrel change intervall b) The change process of the barrel (basically you needed two people and had to pull the weapon from the firing position)

Me knowing that the firing mechanism is lifted from the FG-42 (not! the MG-42) and the quality of that weapon.

                     Pockets

--
Me: You mean I should change the barrel after 100-150 rnds
US PFC: No, you must! It's only mandatory in your MG, not ours.
(We bought him a beer that evening - nice guy after all)
[QUOTE]

Quote

Ok.  The designers were obviously on crack when they made the damage for the tank guns.  A 9mm bullet does 2d6+1 damage, unless I'm mistaken.  A 140mm round does, what, like 26d10 or something?  That's roughly 30 times more. That's insane.  The  damage for the really huge guns is SERIOUSLY underrated.  For the argument, a 9mm round will punch through 1mm of steel (less, actually).  A 140mm round will drill a hole through a block of steel several feet thick. If real-world damage was the same as CP2020 damage, that 140mm round would go through 3cm of steel.  I rest my case.

If you are talking a 140mm tank gun round, I think anything that is not another tank/battle suit would simply be destroyed, no need to roll for damage. In my gaming experience, if you transition from personal combat to vehicle combat you should be switching to a "vehicles only system."

In other words, there is no more point in rolling for damage for a 140mm round against a person, than there is rolling for damage for a 9mm round against a Leopard 2A6 tank. In one case the person is simply dead, in the other case the bullet simply goes "ping".

anti-vehicle/battle suit combat should be handled seperatly from person to person small arms combat. That way you are not rolling 216d10 damage for a dang tank main gun round.

[quote][quote]Umm...the M-60 is an excellent weapon that does it's job quite well, thanks.  Where did you hear otherwise?



The M-60 is in fact a good weapon. The M240 is just better. Like you don't need an asbestos mit to change the barrel under fire.

Also note the Army has been producing M240s for the coax machine guns on the M2 and M1 for years, so it is not too much of a stretch to buy it for the dismounted folks too.

A brief 2 cents...

Mostly I agree with some of the earlier posts....let some common sense rule...your all bright enough folks. If you hit a person with a law rocket...for all but the very smallest chances..its Goo city. Likewise if you pop a M1 Abrams with a 10mm pistol round...its going to bounce like a rubber ball.


My personal preference is to avoid the 'mega' hardware..ACPA, tanks...etc..well I do use the odd punk naught...they generally don't fly...but they do roll well.

Anyway thats my 2 cents worth